Originally Posted by UbberBubba

The following statistics come from
http://www.mcmaster.ca/avpira/statis...rad07 11.html
and
http://sfas.mcmaster.ca/pdf/2011/201...or%20award.pdf

Assuming there are 160 students in BHSc level 1 and 180 students in levels 2-4, there are about 700 students in the HthSci program. The number of students in HthSci with an 11.8 or higher is about 140. So the top 20% of HthScis got an 11.8 or higher sessional average

The number of science students with an 11.8 or higher is about 67. Since there are 5500 full-time students in the faculty of science, it means that the top 1.2% of science has an 11.8 or higher. So the top 1.2% of science students have the same sessional average as the top 20% of HthSci students?? How is that fair??

Also about 20% of HthScis get these two scholarships, while only 6.5% of science students get these scholarships.

With this, I think everyone can agree that there is no denying that there is grade inflation in HthSci, though I must say that the amount of scholarships they receive is not that unreasonable.

PS. From the admissions website, I think it’s fair to say that the average science student coming into McMaster has an average of somewhere in the high 80s (based on the admission averages needed for the various science programs) while the average health science student probably has somewhere around 95. Not that big of a difference at all, especially when you consider the reliability of high school averages. So one can't use that as an argument for the university averages obtained by HthScis.

I agree. Not to mention that in my year, the cut off was 88, that means the average for entrance class is most likely to be 92+%, which honestly is not that much higher than health sci.

If they are not inflated when 20% of the class is getting over an 11.8 average, then you are being spoon fed that marks with easy testing. I know some health sci students, and they dont come across as the smartest people in the world all the time. Look at engineering, we all needed mid to high 80s to get in, but i doubt even 2% of engineering has above an 11 average. Why? because we have difficult testing that is not softended up to help inflate our marks.
I completely agree with UbberBubba that there is inflation in the marking for healthscis. Sorry but those extremely high marks dont seem to be an accurate representation of the intelligence of your faculty in my opinion

The way you guys talk about GPAs , its like you only see both courses as pre-med. Maybe health science is more premed oriented, life science is more oriented for other grad studies.

No, im just speaking from direct experiences with friends that are in healthsci. Friends that I have known for three years now in that program and whom i have spoken with in regards to this matter. But clearly a freshman that has never set foot in a university class would know more than someone going into their final year, how foolish of me to talk as though i have some experience relative to this matter:p

Originally Posted by Mac-10

The way you guys talk about GPAs , its like you only see both courses as pre-med. Maybe health science is more premed oriented, life science is more oriented for other grad studies.

you gotta be kidding me... sure, most of the life scis are oriented toward grad studies. In fact, that's why they are all working their asses off for hospital volunteering and clinical experience.

Let me be the first to state that the views and opinions expressed Mac-10 do not represent those of the rest of the faculty of engineering in any way, shape or form just wanted to get that link out of play right away! haha

I know and have lived with a lot of health science students in the past, and although I wouldn't say their program is overly difficult - they're assuming a lot of risk in their futures.

You have to take into account that almost everybody in the health science faculty was some sort of overachiever in high school. They all spend ridiculous amounts of time studying and all go for the extra credit if an opportunity presents itself. Your typical health sci student spends the majority of their time discussing grades/school, doesn't really touch alcohol and has their face constantly in a book.

Even though the program isn't really difficult per se (it would be trivial to swing by with a 7 average), they all work extremely hard to be on top. On average they actually do better in mixed classes with other science students (i.e. anatomy, Physics 1B03/1BB3, Math 1A03/1AA3. etc). But what's a 7 average in health sci worth compared to a 7 average in life science? The 7 average in life science is definitely much more competitive. Having a 7 in health sci might as well be the same as saying you've failed.

The program is entirely geared towards getting into med school. They aren't given a ridiculous amount of work because it's expected they're going to be studying for the MCAT and volunteering all over the place. It's a common fact that a health sci student who doesn't get into med school has "failed" for all intents and purposes. They very rarely go on to become research students like life science students often do, and instead pursue second degrees.

So all of you can keep complaining about health sci having inflated grades, but take into account, it's likely there is a lot more risk associated with their degree than yours.

The only thing I think is kind of bullshit is the network they've created for themselves over Learn Link. They have access to a lot of past tests/exams that other students don't, which is kind of unfair.

Originally Posted by UbberBubba

The following statistics come from
http://www.mcmaster.ca/avpira/statis...rad07 11.html
and
http://sfas.mcmaster.ca/pdf/2011/201...or%20award.pdf

Assuming there are 160 students in BHSc level 1 and 180 students in levels 2-4, there are about 700 students in the HthSci program. The number of students in HthSci with an 11.8 or higher is about 140. So the top 20% of HthScis got an 11.8 or higher sessional average

The number of science students with an 11.8 or higher is about 67. Since there are 5500 full-time students in the faculty of science, it means that the top 1.2% of science has an 11.8 or higher. So the top 1.2% of science students have the same sessional average as the top 20% of HthSci students?? How is that fair??

Also about 20% of HthScis get these two scholarships, while only 6.5% of science students get these scholarships.

With this, I think everyone can agree that there is no denying that there is grade inflation in HthSci, though I must say that the amount of scholarships they receive is not that unreasonable.

PS. From the admissions website, I think it’s fair to say that the average science student coming into McMaster has an average of somewhere in the high 80s (based on the admission averages needed for the various science programs) while the average health science student probably has somewhere around 95. Not that big of a difference at all, especially when you consider the reliability of high school averages. So one can't use that as an argument for the university averages obtained by HthScis.

I like how every single thing you said has already been addressed in this thread, or the previous one.

Good job

Originally Posted by Chris23

No, im just speaking from direct experiences with friends that are in healthsci.

That's contradictory in itself.

Originally Posted by Chris23

Friends that I have known for three years now in that program and whom i have spoken with in regards to this matter. But clearly a freshman that has never set foot in a university class would know more than someone going into their final year, how foolish of me to talk as though i have some experience relative to this matter:p

Honestly, enough with the anecdotal "evidence". No, you do not have experience in the matter if all you've done is talk to a few friends who happen to be in the program. That's like saying a deaf person knows what a piano sounds like because someone explained it to them. And it doesn't take four years to know that what Mac-10 said has some truth to it. But clearly you, who's spent the last four years in a completely different program would know that right?

Originally Posted by Chris23

Let me be the first to state that the views and opinions expressed Mac-10 do not represent those of the rest of the faculty of engineering in any way, shape or formjust wanted to get that link out of play right away! haha

Didn't know you were the poster child for the Faculty of Engineering, chosen to represent the views and opinions of every single engineering student. But if you are, please, continue with your obnoxious conclusions.

Originally Posted by ggggg

you gotta be kidding me... sure, most of the life scis are oriented toward grad studies. In fact, that's why they are all working their asses off for hospital volunteering and clinical experience.

And you. A lot of the posts you've made in this thread are sweeping generalizations, with no factual evidence to support them at all. And yet, you continue to parade them around as if they're common knowledge. It seems impossible to have a sensible debate with you because you throw out your own beliefs and expect everyone to agree.

/rant

Originally Posted by Ownaginatios

I know and have lived with a lot of health science students in the past, and although I wouldn't say their program is overly difficult - they're assuming a lot of risk in their futures.

You have to take into account that almost everybody in the health science faculty was some sort of overachiever in high school. They all spend ridiculous amounts of time studying and all go for the extra credit if an opportunity presents itself. Your typical health sci student spends the majority of their time discussing grades/school, doesn't really touch alcohol and has their face constantly in a book.

Even though the program isn't really difficult per se (it would be trivial to swing by with a 7 average), they all work extremely hard to be on top. On average they actually do better in mixed classes with other science students (i.e. anatomy, Physics 1B03/1BB3, Math 1A03/1AA3. etc). But what's a 7 average in health sci worth compared to a 7 average in life science? The 7 average in life science is definitely much more competitive. Having a 7 in health sci might as well be the same as saying you've failed.

The program is entirely geared towards getting into med school. They aren't given a ridiculous amount of work because it's expected they're going to be studying for the MCAT and volunteering all over the place. It's a common fact that a health sci student who doesn't get into med school has "failed" for all intents and purposes. They very rarely go on to become research students like life science students often do, and instead pursue second degrees.

So all of you can keep complaining about health sci having inflated grades, but take into account, it's likely there is a lot more risk associated with their degree than yours.

The only thing I think is kind of bullshit is the network they've created for themselves over Learn Link. They have access to a lot of past tests/exams that other students don't, which is kind of unfair.

http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/document...GRADS10-11.pdf
29 people in grad school... I don't think that 29 out of 180 or so counts as 'rare'
(To be fair, they could all be in a course-based Masters program... but that's a huge assumption to make)

Also, a typical health sci doesn't touch alcohol?

Originally Posted by apples12

http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/document...GRADS10-11.pdf

Also, a typical health sci doesn't touch alcohol?

Ethyl methyl or diethyl?

Lol, didn't we exhaust this thread/topic three weeks ago? I think at that time everyone got their feelings out. It's over now.

Maybe this should be an annual thread, since all the first years eventually end up having some sort of beef with the Health Sci program anyway? ^_^

Originally Posted by Alchemist11

Lol, didn't we exhaust this thread/topic three weeks ago? I think at that time everyone got their feelings out. It's over now.

Maybe this should be an annual thread, since all the first years eventually end up having some sort of beef with the Health Sci program anyway? ^_^

I completely agree that first years run their mouths way to often on things that they clearly cant have a developed opinion on. Ive seen it a lot this summer where "prospective students" come on here and try telling the upper year students how things are done at Mac and its absurd to be honest.
You first years are going to be here for at least 4 more years, might not want to be burning down bridges before you even get here. Just saying

Originally Posted by Alchemist11

Lol, didn't we exhaust this thread/topic three weeks ago? I think at that time everyone got their feelings out. It's over now.

Maybe this should be an annual thread, since all the first years eventually end up having some sort of beef with the Health Sci program anyway? ^_^

I wasn't aware I had stepped into my time machine.

It's more of an awareness issue for me. I wonder if all of this sheltering will cause students to get lax enough that medical schools stop accepting BHSc students based on bad experiences in the past.

One of my professors had an in-law who sat on medical admissions committees at UofT. According to her and him, some schools don't necessarily favour BHSc candidates, instead evaluating them more harshly because of the degree. Same with Biochem actually.

Just some food for thought. It doesn't necessarily make "life easier".

That being said, one of my best doctors right now at the clinic I go to graduated as a Health Sci and I know a lot of hard working diligent people who are Health Scis who would make great doctors. There are slackers in every program that still make it to med school. There are hard working people who really deserve to be doctors who don't.