Well, I have a complaint. It's all outlined in the following letter. Who would be the best people to send this to? I'm looking to send this to as many people as possible. Even if they can't do anything, I would like them all to be aware of the problem, and how we, the students of first year engineering, feel about it.

-------------------

January 6, 2009

To whom it may concern,

Today I was unable to attend math class. It is not because I was late, I was early. It was not because I was loud or disobedient, I was quiet and courteous. It was not because the room was superior to another; the room was small, cramped, and heated to what felt like 85 degrees. The reason I was unable to attend math class was because I was attending Dr. Childs' math class. Although I was early, every seat was taken. Every stair was full of students, and there was no room left for me, or the other large chunk of students still coming in to the room.

So I am writing to you, hoping you take the time to hear what it is I have to say. This is not a letter of complaint. This is not a letter of frustration. This is a plea to help those students who have impaired educations due to a lack of action, along with several plans of action provided in this letter to consider.

Many of the students in that class were not supposed to be there. Although there are two other lecturers, at least 30% of the other classes are trying to attend Childs' lectures instead. I know this because last semester, I was one of those students. Admittedly, that statistic is an educated but arbitrary guess, although I would not be surprised if it was not far from the truth.

Why then, given a spacious, less crowded lecture hall, and a lecturer who can devote more attention to individuals, do students registered in another core section choose to pack in to Dr. Childs' lectures? The answer is quite simple, and quite obvious. The other two professors of first year Engineering Mathematics do not do a good job of teaching students math. In addition, there is a large language gap between lecturer and students. Both Dr. Velez and Dr. Protas have thick accents that many students strain to understand, which complicates the already hard to understand subject of Engineering Mathematics.

Talking to older students, I can tell this is not a new problem. Students packing Dr. Childs’ lecture rooms past full has been going on for at least three years, and although I am in no position to state otherwise, I can guess this has been a problem for a longer period of time. I have, however, come up with several solutions to the problem of the Engineering Mathematics dilemma.

The first solution, although possibly not the most reasonable one, is to replace the professors who can not perform an adequate job of teaching. Admittedly, this is not the easiest solution to execute, but it is by far the best solution as far as the education of McMaster's future engineers.

The second solution is much more reasonable. With the recent addition of the iClicker to the lecturers' arsenal, I propose a modest percentage of the Engineering Mathematics 1Z04 and 1ZZ5 final grade should be attributed to classroom attendance and/or participation. It is not an unreasonable request, Physics 1D03 and 1E03 have already adopted this solution to classroom attendance. This would not only ensure students are in the correct lecture hall at their designated times, it would also help offset, and possibly eliminate, the need for bell-curving the final grade. This solution, obviously, would start taking effect after this semester at the earliest.

A third solution is the simplest. If Dr. Childs is willing, ask him to teach more than one set of weekly lectures. This would, obviously, increase his workload, but it is an option not to leave unchecked, if his free time permits. It takes very little effort to do so, and would solve this problem until his resignation.

On behalf of all of the first year Engineers, I sincerely hope you consider what it is I have said, and realize that continuing to ignore a problem will not result in a solution. Although I am one student, writing one letter, I represent the thoughts and feelings of the majority of the students currently enrolled in first year Engineering.

McMaster Engineers say, "The harder you push, the better it fits." However, this motto should not have to be applied when finding a seat at the beginning of a lecture.

Kurt Bernasch, Eng. I

Take it up with your Dean? That's where I would start.

Very well worded letter by the way.

You might want to also suggest that they perhaps have Dr. Childs teach in a bigger lecture hall like MDCL 1305. This way he wouldn't have to take on anymore classes per week, and everyone who really wants to go to his class will have space.

Oh come on. I dislike you people that have immediately given up on Protoss and Velez. Both of them are perfectly capable of teaching if you are willing to listen. They're both very smart guys and speak English well enough (well, Velez's spelling is a little on the still half in Spanish side, but meh). People that immediately give up on a professor because of his/her accent piss me off.

The truth of the matter is, if you cannot learn from either of them, just learn it on your own. The text book is excellent in terms of how it is written for the most part, and most of the professor's notes are just reiterations of the textbook anyway - including Childs'.

Also, Childs is not the god of mathematics regardless of what everyone says. I blame the stupid red suits that were going and telling all the first years during welcome week that Childs is some sort of savior. I had at least three red suits tell me during frosh week that I should just rearrange my schedule to be able to go to Childs' class if possible, even if I can't register in the class. Apparently overcrowding is "normal". Thanks a lot red suits - you have single handedly screwed over people that are SUPPOSED to be in Childs' class by telling everyone else to go there.

No offense Kurt, but by being one of those people that did exactly what you are complaining about last term makes you a hypocrite.

Im in Protas's class and I do think he's a very smart guy. But to be honest, its really not the language issue that I think is why people prefer Childs. It just a different teaching method. Ive been to both of their classes and I can say that they teach the material very differently.

Childs seems to give alot of examples of the types of questions that are going to be on the test. With Childs' notes, you can be working on your homework find a question, and go back and find how Childs did it in his example.

Protas on the other hand teaches alot of theory with very few examples. To be honest I wouldn't say Childs teaches math better per say, its just that he teaches it in a way that probably allows people to better on the tests because he teaches us how to do the questions, while Protas teaches us mathmatical theorums.

I do tend to agree with the guy above in that if you are in Protas or Velez`s class, you should just stick with it. You may have to put a bit more effort into learning how to do the questions, but you cant blame the prof if your not doing well....they are all more than qualified to teach this stuff.

Own:

Not exactly true. Last semester we were in TSH 120, which had ample space. And I started going after people started dropping, so the class was only 80-90% full at most.

And this is merely a point of view. As is yours. Unfortunately, yours is a minority. If all we had to do was read the textbook, why would people spends thousands of dollars on an education?


And thank you everyone else, all of this will be incorporated in, other people's views matter too.

I do and do not agree with you Ownaginatios,

I've had profs before where I couldn't learn from them because of their accent. When it's hard to understand someone it's hard to learn from them. Also, not everyone can learn by reading their textbook so it's not fair to tell people to just do that if they can't understand their prof. In their defense, they're paying for a course and they should get the best out of it that they can, if that means going to a diff prof then so be it.

On the flip side, sometimes it just takes a bit to get used to the profs accent and then you can cope.

Originally Posted by Kurt_

If all we had to do was read the textbook, why would people spends thousands of dollars on an education?

Well, this class if kind of unique in that way in the sense that everything the professors say is literally exactly what's written in the textbook. At least that's how Velez pulled off 1Z04. Protoss seems to be doing the same thing so far as well. It's not like Physics where there's the notes and CAPA, and then there's the textbook. I've heard of lots of people doing this.

On the topic of crowded classrooms, my materials class is a little ridiculous. There are people on the floors and everything, and I'm pretty sure not everyone is freaking out over Professor Botton like they are over Childs...

Originally Posted by kokosas

I do and do not agree with you Ownaginatios,

I've had profs before where I couldn't learn from them because of their accent.

I'm talking about people who just walk in on the first day and immediately say to themselves "I can't learn from this guy", and then try to go to a class which is already at capacity.

A question: You speak of Protas and Velez and their teaching styles. Have you even attended ONE lecture by Dr. Childs?

And it's not like I'm the only one thinking this, man. If I was, the class wouldn't be overcrowded.

I'm also in your materials class, and although it is crowded, it's not as bad as you're describing.

Originally Posted by Kurt_

I'm also in your materials class, and although it is crowded, it's not as bad as you're describing.

It was towards the left side of the room from the professor's perspective.

Dillion i've seen your posts alot recently and I have to say that your posts never contribute anything positive to the subject, I think you need to change the way you think about other people's opinions and mature up a bit

Thanks

Originally Posted by Kurt_

Well, I have a complaint. It's all outlined in the following letter. Who would be the best people to send this to? I'm looking to send this to as many people as possible. Even if they can't do anything, I would like them all to be aware of the problem, and how we, the students of first year engineering, feel about it.

-------------------

January 6, 2009

To whom it may concern,

Today I was unable to attend math class. It is not because I was late, I was early. It was not because I was loud or disobedient, I was quiet and courteous. It was not because the room was superior to another; the room was small, cramped, and heated to what felt like 85 degrees. The reason I was unable to attend math class was because I was attending Dr. Childs' math class. Although I was early, every seat was taken. Every stair was full of students, and there was no room left for me, or the other large chunk of students still coming in to the room.

So I am writing to you, hoping you take the time to hear what it is I have to say. This is not a letter of complaint. This is not a letter of frustration. This is a plea to help those students who have impaired educations due to a lack of action, along with several plans of action provided in this letter to consider.

Many of the students in that class were not supposed to be there. Although there are two other lecturers, at least 30% of the other classes are trying to attend Childs' lectures instead. I know this because last semester, I was one of those students. Admittedly, that statistic is an educated but arbitrary guess, although I would not be surprised if it was not far from the truth.

Why then, given a spacious, less crowded lecture hall, and a lecturer who can devote more attention to individuals, do students registered in another core section choose to pack in to Dr. Childs' lectures? The answer is quite simple, and quite obvious. The other two professors of first year Engineering Mathematics do not do a good job of teaching students math. In addition, there is a large language gap between lecturer and students. Both Dr. Velez and Dr. Protas have thick accents that many students strain to understand, which complicates the already hard to understand subject of Engineering Mathematics.

Talking to older students, I can tell this is not a new problem. Students packing Dr. Childs’ lecture rooms past full has been going on for at least three years, and although I am in no position to state otherwise, I can guess this has been a problem for a longer period of time. I have, however, come up with several solutions to the problem of the Engineering Mathematics dilemma.

The first solution, although possibly not the most reasonable one, is to replace the professors who can not perform an adequate job of teaching. Admittedly, this is not the easiest solution to execute, but it is by far the best solution as far as the education of McMaster's future engineers.

The second solution is much more reasonable. With the recent addition of the iClicker to the lecturers' arsenal, I propose a modest percentage of the Engineering Mathematics 1Z04 and 1ZZ5 final grade should be attributed to classroom attendance and/or participation. It is not an unreasonable request, Physics 1D03 and 1E03 have already adopted this solution to classroom attendance. This would not only ensure students are in the correct lecture hall at their designated times, it would also help offset, and possibly eliminate, the need for bell-curving the final grade. This solution, obviously, would start taking effect after this semester at the earliest.

A third solution is the simplest. If Dr. Childs is willing, ask him to teach more than one set of weekly lectures. This would, obviously, increase his workload, but it is an option not to leave unchecked, if his free time permits. It takes very little effort to do so, and would solve this problem until his resignation.

On behalf of all of the first year Engineers, I sincerely hope you consider what it is I have said, and realize that continuing to ignore a problem will not result in a solution. Although I am one student, writing one letter, I represent the thoughts and feelings of the majority of the students currently enrolled in first year Engineering.

McMaster Engineers say, "The harder you push, the better it fits." However, this motto should not have to be applied when finding a seat at the beginning of a lecture.

Kurt Bernasch, Eng. I

Okay okay, I'll be nice. If I were you , I would take out the part saying that you were once one of those people that would go to Childs' class. Whoever will be reading this won't know that you only did it after a lot of people dropped out.

I would also take out the part claiming that Velez and Proton are bad teachers. From my experience with arguing over something with the engineering course coordinator lady, the university really doesn't like it when you make it look like they made a mistake. You might just want to say that students tend to prefer Childs' teaching style or something.

You also might want to take this part out of the introduction, or at least change it around:

It was not because the room was superior to another; the room was small, cramped, and heated to what felt like 85 degrees.

It wouldn't make sense that you wouldn't attend a class because the room is superior over another one. lol. Maybe that was a typo and you meant "wasn't" instead of "was".

You also might want to argue for a larger room a bit more. The other suggestions are good, but getting a bigger room is the only one that might actually be possible within this semester.

Originally Posted by Alireza

Dillion i've seen your posts alot recently and I have to say that your posts never contribute anything positive to the subject, I think you need to change the way you think about other people's opinions and mature up a bit

Thanks

Okay, yes, now that I look back on my previous comments they do seem a bit condescending. I'll try to meet people more halfway from now on to avoid flame wars.






...btw, my name does not have a second 'i' in it. :p

Wow that must suck for kids in Childs class..funny though Protas's classes look full..I just went to my first class today

Like many posters above, it comes down to teaching styles. Protas is an intelligent prof..and hilarious loll..many memories from 1Z04..BUT I dont plan on attending all of his classes based on 2 facts: 1) Unfortunately, he just copies the same examples in the book, and sadly makes mistakes when writing them, and im aware of Childs apparantly unique, yet difficult examples..Protas simply adding sh** words and rewords the definitions in the textbook and 2) I can sure get a lot more done in those 50min..considering it takes me 20min to travel to and from mac and I really wont bother attending classes at 530..unless if I have a class before it..alright thas my personal reason loll..

I do agree with Dillon (damn ur Dillon Dixon lol, u mod WebCT or something haha im jokin)..no point in bashin the profs..u could've done that last term, but ur only sayin it now cause of the ridiculous class size in what is possibly JHE's largest room!