All this means is that students will be drinking 30% more. I'm sure some have asked whether they can make a direct deposit to The Beer Store.

Originally Posted by mike_302

Heck, give the partying student the $1600 rebate if he's in the top {insert grade cutoff here}% of his/her class. And give the poor student their fair share of the refund money if they also meet the grade criteria. Don't give the poor kid or the partying student the refund if they don't meet the grade criteria in a 2 year window... Simple as that.

The other argument I foresee is "Well he/she has to work, so their grades are low! So they just get screwed by your proposed plan." My response to that: Tough luck. If you're going to graduate with a 3 or 4 average, but you're going to keep McDonalds on your resume for 4 years, what's your degree going to do for you anyways? Don't tell me 3 or 4 averages don't mean you didn't learn anything... If you've worked throughout your time here to pay for school, and all you could manage was a 3 or 4 average because you worked your butt off to pay for school, you didn't take much away from your degree. Would anyone disagree? Maybe I'm wrong... Maybe a 3 or 4 average and working at the golden arches for 4 years in between and after classes means you learned lots and you'll be a great benefit to society... What do I know...?

I think no matter what criteria the government chooses, there will always be people to criticize and say its not fair.

The problem with monitoring a student's grades over a 2 year window is that it increases the administration costs for the government and the university. I don't think that would be an effective use of tax dollars either. Also, by giving a rebate to the student with a 3 or 4 average...he/she will be able to work less and increase studying time and raise their average.

Personally, I think a person's average does not indicate whether or not they will be a great benefit to society. For example, someone with a low average may end up being an entrepreneur, start their own business, invent something new, etc. A person with a high average, might just end up being a regular employee. As students, I think we overemphasize the importance of universities, degrees, and grades. In the real world, I think we'll come to realize that a person's character is what matters.

Not sure that overworking themselves and McD's and getting a low average speaks much for the person's character. Administration costs for this type of system wouldn't be through the roof either... Attach a copy of your transcript with the application. Done.

I still think the benefits far outweigh the costs here. Benefits being less government spending so less chance the government of Ontario loses its credit rating... Talk about the bigger picture and what matters.

Originally Posted by mike_302

Not sure that overworking themselves and McD's and getting a low average speaks much for the person's character. Administration costs for this type of system wouldn't be through the roof either... Attach a copy of your transcript with the application. Done.

I still think the benefits far outweigh the costs here. Benefits being less government spending so less chance the government of Ontario loses its credit rating... Talk about the bigger picture and what matters.

The administrative cost to look through 310,000 transcripts would be huge. Half of the 310,000 are automatically given the rebate through osap. The way the system is set up now is much more efficient.
Also, grade based rebate is stupid. This is not a scholarship, its a 30% rebate for tuition. Everyone pays equal tuition so we all get it.

ThatGuy is right, this isn't a scolarship. Ontario has the highest average tuition rates of all provinces, and the liberals put this rebate in place to try to fix that. All of us are paying too much for tuition, so think of this as a decrease in tuition fees. In that case, how would it be fair to charge students with lower averages more to attend school?

Originally Posted by mike_302

Not sure that overworking themselves and McD's and getting a low average speaks much for the person's character. Administration costs for this type of system wouldn't be through the roof either... Attach a copy of your transcript with the application. Done.

I still think the benefits far outweigh the costs here. Benefits being less government spending so less chance the government of Ontario loses its credit rating... Talk about the bigger picture and what matters.

Well you are assuming that people working at McDonald's have a "choice", as in they could choose not to work there and still scrape by and pay their rent, food and educational costs. Unfortunately for quite a few people this is simply not an option. Since this entire thing is something I read about on a daily basis as part of my job with the MSU I can tell you that there is significant research out there that shows that purely having or not having the "financial" means is not the only barrier to education. A large number of barriers, especially within under represented groups, low income families and minority groups is perception of cost and this grant definitely helps alleviate quite a bit of that.

There is already a cutoff for being in good academic standing(which has been criticized by many people as still being unfair because people can suffer academically due to exceptional personal reasons, learning disabilities and pressures). Secondly I am very confused by your constant conjecture of "partying C grade students" who will blow off this money on booze and clubbing, can you please provide us with some form of evidence for this thing?

Even if this phenomenon your propose of these students who are leeching of society, politics simply doesn't work of these knee jerk insinuations. Most political parties try to create plans that benefit the largest available portion of society and getting into too much micro managing is a political minefield since it suggests a form of elitism. Canadian political identity has a long standing slant towards equalization rather than creating a class system that exists say in USA.
Family income has traditionally been proposed to be co-related as one of the many indicators of academic success and by creating cut offs for the high income kids who went to better schools, have strong support systems, don't have to work part time and subsequently on average do better than say a struggling low income kid who has to work multiple jobs, came from an underfunded ghetto highschool and is trying to grind his way up the ladder. That's simply not the Canadian way, we don't have a society with private ivy schools.

For anyone looking for detailed eligibility criteria you can find it here http://www.ousa.ca/tuitiongrant/

"This is not a scholarship, its a 30% rebate for tuition. Everyone pays equal tuition so we all get it."

Yea, yea. You're right. The way it is, is always the best way to do it.

Also secondly I don't see it as "drop out money", In order to qualify you need to have a full course load aka 18 units or more, hence these students already invested a significant amount into the system and are getting a portion of it back. Your argument would have made sense if this program was a Scholarship that paid you money above and over what you already paid for tuition. They same dropouts could have just not paid anything in the first place.

^^ Frankly, in the end, all I regret about this government's decision to do this, is that hundreds of people will get a $1600 rebate and then drop out of school, or continue to be in the absolute bottom end of their class. Since debt seems to be a major global issue, and a major issue for the government of Ontario too, I think that means millions of dollars just went to waste.

It WILL happen. You can argue that I don't have "stats" cited to back them up, and I don't claim to either. Normally, this would be my pet peeve of a poster, but I'm not claiming to have stats that my proposed method is better. But here's my reasoning. If you think it's wrong, again, tell me, I'll shut up:

Probability that students are eligible for $1600 rebate {Extremely large} intersect with Probability that student drops out of university {between 10 and 20% at most Ontario universities, [1]}

Factor in the size of the population you're looking at... You just need 1 stats course to understand that means a lot of kids are getting tax payers money because they are assumed to be getting an education when they are in fact dropping out.

[1] http://oncampus.macleans.ca/educatio...t-over-grades/

Well according to OUSA, we are only getting 800 in January, not the stated 1600 in al the news articles, and as an organization about ontario students, I would hope they have the most legt info.

The program will begin in January 2012. Each eligible student will have half of the grant made available in January for the second term’s tuition – meaning $800 for university students and $365 for college students. The full amount would then be available in September 2012.

Also intersting

For September 2012, you will be able to apply and the grant will come off your tuition bill directly.

Plus for people who receive more the 7300 and get the OSOG, you will not get extra money, but a reduce loan .

The government has indicated that the grant will be in addition to any OSOG grant a student receives. That is that the grant will convert the first part of a student’s loan to a grant, reducing student debt (like other provincial grants). For instance, if a student receives the maximum OSAP package of $12,240, they will only need to pay back $5,700, because beyond the $4,940 OSOG grant, an additional $1,600 would be covered by the new tuition grant. This example assumes that the student was not eligible for any other grant programs offered by the province.

and really dont fully understand what this part means exactly..

If you currently receive the Ontario Distance Grant, Ontario Access Grant or Textbook & Technology Grant together in excess of $1,600, the new tuition grant will not come in addition to the funds you receive from these programs. Rather, you will keep the amounts you receive from these programs as well as the difference between their combined value and the tuition grant. That is the total you will be able to receive in provincial up-front grants is $1,600.

Originally Posted by MacPack

and really dont fully understand what this part means exactly..

It just means that the tuition rebate acts like a grant and they cap the government grant at 1600$. So say you receive 1000$ from the previous 3 grants, then you are only eligible for a 600$ tuition rebate.

Well that kind of makes me sad, my Ontario Access Grant is around $2000. I guess I won't be getting this rebate.

Originally Posted by mike_302

^^ Frankly, in the end, all I regret about this government's decision to do this, is that hundreds of people will get a $1600 rebate and then drop out of school, or continue to be in the absolute bottom end of their class. Since debt seems to be a major global issue, and a major issue for the government of Ontario too, I think that means millions of dollars just went to waste.

It's only $1600, why would someone drop out after they get it. $1600 doesn't even go a long way... it's a few months rent.
You're forgetting the purpose of this rebate. It's because students in Ontario are paying too much, so they're trying to reduce it.

Originally Posted by mike_302

Not sure that overworking themselves and McD's and getting a low average speaks much for the person's character. Administration costs for this type of system wouldn't be through the roof either... Attach a copy of your transcript with the application. Done.

I still think the benefits far outweigh the costs here. Benefits being less government spending so less chance the government of Ontario loses its credit rating... Talk about the bigger picture and what matters.

Are you serious? You dont think a person working to support their own education regardless of grades has character? Grades arent everything Mike, you need to realize that. When you graduate the majority of future employers dont care about your grades as long as you get the degree. I'd rather get a university degree with a 4 average and have to work at McD's to pay for it than not get an education at all or a college degree. Average means NOTHING in the long run.

Good luck out of University with a 4 average as an engineer. I remember this discussion 2 years back on this forum. I'm not getting into this again. Let me summarize how that one ended: Grades don't matter in the long run, but they matter a hell of a lot for some degrees (especially technical ones) for the first few jobs you want.

And to ThatGuy, there was never any belief anyone would drop out because they received a rebate. People drop out anyways. Now that I've made that point yet again, please cycle back to my last post where I sum up my point in a non-argumentative way.