Is it possible to get a high GPA at McMaster Life Science?
Hi.

I got accepted to McMaster Life Science and I'm wondering how hard it is...
Currently I'm deciding between Mac LS and Western Medical Science.

I've been hearing from different sources that McMaster Life Sci is insanely hard, and is a killer like U of T Life Sci with all the grade deflation.

I'm a med hopeful so I really need an 11 or higher...

Is it true that Mac Life Sci is insanely hard? Is it possible achieve a high GPA, and what are the difficult courses?

Thanks so much!

Of course it's possible to get an 11/ 12 GPA. Difficult? Hell yea. You're asking to be among the top 5% of students in your program before you have even began. Unless someone has attended both Mac and U of T for Life Science, we can't compare the difficulty of both programs. All we know is that U of T Life Science requires low 80s averages to be accepted and takes around 1500 first years, while Mac Life Science requires high 80 averages to be accepted and takes around 840 first years. I would imagine the competition to be more intense at Mac due to the higher caliber of students, if you assess this by the high school admissions requirements.

Your question is flawed. University itself is a notch more difficult than high school. None of us here can adequately determine or predict how you will do. Class averages for first and second year programs are usually in the C range, so regardless of program you're asking to be in the top tier of students.

Make your decision between Mac and Western med science based on city of preference, cost differences, distance from family, course selections, etc.

I would probably choose Western med science because a lot of students from there go into health care professional programs. It's similar to Mac Health Science in being a feeder program if you are able to maintain the high average to get into med science after second year.

Originally Posted by Pendragon

Of course it's possible to get an 11/ 12 GPA. Difficult? Hell yea. You're asking to be among the top 5% of students in your program before you have even began. Unless someone has attended both Mac and U of T for Life Science, we can't compare the difficulty of both programs. All we know is that U of T Life Science requires low 80s averages to be accepted and takes around 1500 first years, while Mac Life Science requires high 80 averages to be accepted and takes around 840 first years. I would imagine the competition to be more intense at Mac due to the higher caliber of students, if you assess this by the high school admissions requirements.

Your question is flawed. University itself is a notch more difficult than high school. None of us here can adequately determine or predict how you will do. Class averages for first and second year programs are usually in the C range, so regardless of program you're asking to be in the top tier of students.

Make your decision between Mac and Western med science based on city of preference, cost differences, distance from family, course selections, etc.

I would probably choose Western med science because a lot of students from there go into health care professional programs. It's similar to Mac Health Science in being a feeder program if you are able to maintain the high average to get into med science after second year.

Yeah Thank you so much for the answer!

I decided Western Medical Science because of the following reasons (please evaluate it)
1. Like you said its a feeder program (higher chance of getting accepted to medical school from there)
2. 80% at Western translates to a perfect 4.0 GPA when I apply to Murican meds through AMCAS
3. If I can maintain a certain average, Western gives priority to Med Sci students entering 3rd year so it actually reduces the competition greatly (than what I previously imagined).
4, You actually deal with medical material (because the program is jointly offered with the Schulich School of Medicine), and you can interact with MD's, classes are small so profs are approachable, they will give me a good recommendation letter for medical school
5. For what I can gather Western is fair for its difficulty. And you get what you put in.

1. Like you said its a feeder program (higher chance of getting accepted to medical school from there)
Does this really mean anything? It is my understanding that your program has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you will get into medical school (directly, at least) because at the end if the day, if your marks are not high enough, schools will not even look at your application. Perhaps you will enjoy the material more because the program focuses more specifically on the field of medicine and thus will interest you more, however I don't think the program that you are in matters at all when it comes time to applying for medical school (unless, like I said, it enables you to achieve higher grades)

2. 80% at Western translates to a perfect 4.0 GPA when I apply to Murican meds through AMCAS
I don't know about this, but if it is true then that is insane... I'm pretty sure a perfect 4.0 at Mac requires all 12's, which means all marks above 90%. It seems odd that the two schools could be evaluated so differently but if that is the case then that seems like a good enough reason to go to Western.

3. If I can maintain a certain average, Western gives priority to Med Sci students entering 3rd year so it actually reduces the competition greatly (than what I previously imagined).
Gives priority to Med Sci students in their medical school? Never heard of this either but if it is true, that would be a good reason to choose Western over Mac as well.

4, You actually deal with medical material (because the program is jointly offered with the Schulich School of Medicine), and you can interact with MD's, classes are small so profs are approachable, they will give me a good recommendation letter for medical school
You can build relationships with professors at any school, in any program. I stayed in a very large program at Mac and was able to meet and get to know several professors. The benefit you might have is that the professors you are referring to might also be MD's and their reference letters might be seen as more applicable in the eyes of the admissions boards. With that said, most people in the program are going to very keen to build these relationships and will be in the same position as you so it might be worth considering the competition you will have (in that environment) with respect to getting to know the faculty. That was another benefit I found of being in a larger program.. the majority of students were not very eager and thus the quality of my work, my work ethic and networking skills stood out from those around me and professors actually reached out to me. Just something to think about, but it sounds like you are more than willing to put the effort and research in to make sure you get to know the right people.


5. For what I can gather Western is fair for its difficulty. And you get what you put in.
I would argue that Mac is just as fair and that you will find, at any school, that you can achieve the grades you want if you put the effort in.

Originally Posted by shelbs

2. 80% at Western translates to a perfect 4.0 GPA when I apply to Murican meds through AMCAS
I don't know about this, but if it is true then that is insane... I'm pretty sure a perfect 4.0 at Mac requires all 12's, which means all marks above 90%. It seems odd that the two schools could be evaluated so differently but if that is the case then that seems like a good enough reason to go to Western.

For AMCAS, it's 87% and above that translates into a 4.0, but this would only be 11 from Mac which is 85+ so you should actually have a slight advantage.
OMSAS is different. A 4.0 is >90 from Western, or 12 from Mac.

Originally Posted by shelbs

1. Like you said its a feeder program (higher chance of getting accepted to medical school from there)
Does this really mean anything? It is my understanding that your program has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you will get into medical school (directly, at least) because at the end if the day, if your marks are not high enough, schools will not even look at your application. Perhaps you will enjoy the material more because the program focuses more specifically on the field of medicine and thus will interest you more, however I don't think the program that you are in matters at all when it comes time to applying for medical school (unless, like I said, it enables you to achieve higher grades)

2. 80% at Western translates to a perfect 4.0 GPA when I apply to Murican meds through AMCAS
I don't know about this, but if it is true then that is insane... I'm pretty sure a perfect 4.0 at Mac requires all 12's, which means all marks above 90%. It seems odd that the two schools could be evaluated so differently but if that is the case then that seems like a good enough reason to go to Western.

3. If I can maintain a certain average, Western gives priority to Med Sci students entering 3rd year so it actually reduces the competition greatly (than what I previously imagined).
Gives priority to Med Sci students in their medical school? Never heard of this either but if it is true, that would be a good reason to choose Western over Mac as well.

4, You actually deal with medical material (because the program is jointly offered with the Schulich School of Medicine), and you can interact with MD's, classes are small so profs are approachable, they will give me a good recommendation letter for medical school
You can build relationships with professors at any school, in any program. I stayed in a very large program at Mac and was able to meet and get to know several professors. The benefit you might have is that the professors you are referring to might also be MD's and their reference letters might be seen as more applicable in the eyes of the admissions boards. With that said, most people in the program are going to very keen to build these relationships and will be in the same position as you so it might be worth considering the competition you will have (in that environment) with respect to getting to know the faculty. That was another benefit I found of being in a larger program.. the majority of students were not very eager and thus the quality of my work, my work ethic and networking skills stood out from those around me and professors actually reached out to me. Just something to think about, but it sounds like you are more than willing to put the effort and research in to make sure you get to know the right people.


5. For what I can gather Western is fair for its difficulty. And you get what you put in.
I would argue that Mac is just as fair and that you will find, at any school, that you can achieve the grades you want if you put the effort in.

Thank you! That will get me thinking again! And yes an 80% at Western translates to a perfect 4.0 GPA only if you apply through AMCAS though. For McMaster its 85% + to get a 4.0 on your AMCAS transcript. And the UWO medical school doesn't have preference to UWO med sci's. I meant that the med sci bachelor program gives priority to the 2nd year med sci students coming in to 3rd year med sci over students who apply from different programs (General Sci, Health Sci, Kinesiology) or other schools etc.

Originally Posted by starfish

For AMCAS, it's 87% and above that translates into a 4.0, but this would only be 11 from Mac which is 85+ so you should actually have a slight advantage.
OMSAS is different. A 4.0 is >90 from Western, or 12 from Mac.

Thanks so much for your input!

Because Western doesn't have (+), "0", or (-) grades, an 80%+ is translated as a 4.0 GPA on the AMCAS.

Mac is 85% + to get a 4.0 perfect GPA.
So its a slight advantage for Western students (assuming Mac isn't much harder than Western).
But from what I can gather, Western sounds like a fair program so I think it should actually be easier to get an 80+ at Western and thus a 4.0 GPA on the AMCAS transcript.

Originally Posted by hoc13

Thank you! That will get me thinking again! And yes an 80% at Western translates to a perfect 4.0 GPA only if you apply through AMCAS though. For McMaster its 85% + to get a 4.0 on your AMCAS transcript. And the UWO medical school doesn't have preference to UWO med sci's. I meant that the med sci bachelor program gives priority to the 2nd year med sci students coming in to 3rd year med sci over students who apply from different programs (General Sci, Health Sci, Kinesiology) or other schools etc.

Had no idea! Thanks for letting me know. It sounds like you are in pretty good shape and know what you are doing. I'm sure you will make the best decision for you. Best of luck!

Originally Posted by hoc13

Thanks so much for your input!

Because Western doesn't have (+), "0", or (-) grades, an 80%+ is translated as a 4.0 GPA on the AMCAS.

Mac is 85% + to get a 4.0 perfect GPA.
So its a slight advantage for Western students (assuming Mac isn't much harder than Western).
But from what I can gather, Western sounds like a fair program so I think it should actually be easier to get an 80+ at Western and thus a 4.0 GPA on the AMCAS transcript.

York is also like this. An 80% is a 3.8 GPA to Canadian graduate and professional schools and a perfect 4.0 for American schools. They have no minuses so an 80-89 is listed as an A on the transcript (verified this with my friend who goes there).

AAAAAHHH I don't know... I thought I should go with UWO med sci but there are some cons to this decision compared to Mac :

1. No co-op at Western - work experience esp. research experience is important when applying to medical schools.I applied and got accepted to McMaster Biochem (Biomed Research) co-op. Also, I've heard that there are many research opportunities for first year LS students. Is this true?

2. Reputation - is better at Mac. Opens up a lot of more opportunities internationally. The low ranking for Western not good to see.

3. If getting a 85+ gpa is attainable at Mac there is really no reason for me to go to Western. I'm very interested in biomedical research as well.

I'm sorry I keep asking lol. I know these questions are lame to you guys but please help!

Originally Posted by hoc13

AAAAAHHH I don't know... I thought I should go with UWO med sci but there are some cons to this decision compared to Mac :

1. No co-op at Western - work experience esp. research experience is important when applying to medical schools.I applied and got accepted to McMaster Biochem (Biomed Research) co-op. Also, I've heard that there are many research opportunities for first year LS students. Is this true?

2. Reputation - is better at Mac. Opens up a lot of more opportunities internationally. The low ranking for Western not good to see.

3. If getting a 85+ gpa is attainable at Mac there is really no reason for me to go to Western. I'm very interested in biomedical research as well.

I'm sorry I keep asking lol. I know these questions are lame to you guys but please help!

1) you can find your own summer research positions. How did you get accepted to biochem coop already, dont you apply in 2nd year? Research opportunity for first year LS students is limited
2) This is ridiculous, mac do not open any doors that UWO does not open.
3) it is possible to get that GPA anywhere, the question is the difficulty. In which i think UWO might have an advantage here.

Originally Posted by hoc13

:

1. No co-op at Western - work experience esp. research experience is important when applying to medical schools.I applied and got accepted to McMaster Biochem (Biomed Research) co-op. Also, I've heard that there are many research opportunities for first year LS students. Is this true?

You have not been accepted to biochem, nor have you been accepted to co-op. You cannot start biochem until second year (you apply near the end of first year) and you cannot start co-op until third year (you apply near the end of second year).

Make sure you actually know which programs you're trying to compare.

There are hundreds of first year life sci students and most of them have zero lab experience. Some will be able to get paid/volunteer lab positions after first year, but typically that doesn't happen until after second year and being in a specialization definitely helps with that.

Originally Posted by gggggg

This is ridiculous, mac do not open any doors that UWO does not open.

This type of naïve argument factors alarmingly frequently in students' personal decisions. McMaster does indeed have a high international ranking, especially for a school of its size, but this is because of its Faculty of Health Sciences. And even for the students in the Faculty of Health Sciences, it does not matter for them if the ranking is high or low. Why? Because the quality of the education is not being assessed through these scales! These scales are predominately research based.


McMaster ranks highly because evidence-based medicine was pioneered, in part, at Mac, along with the first department of clinical epidemiology in the world where novel epidemiological/statistical methods were developed and shared with the world. David Sackett and Gordan Guyatt are a few of the important names at McMaster (Sacket passed away recently unfortunately) that helped put McMaster on the international map. As a result of all the expertise that gathered here in epidemiology, some of the best clinical research in the country (and for some disciplines like cardiology, in the world - search PHRI) takes place at McMaster. If you search the rankings that place McMaster highly, it is predominately because of these research accomplishments that McMaster makes the list...but search it for the sub-disciplines and you'll notice that the health sciences score highly skews it, where Mac always ranks in the Top 30 world and has reached as high as position 12.

But what on earth does this mean for a student? Really, nothing. You will find research at all schools. The classes at Mac won't be any more inspiring or profound than they will be at Western. The students wont be smarter. There is really no difference - unless you decide to come here for medicine because clinical research is really your passion, or even as an undergraduate, then McMaster will indeed give you better opportunities for it. Other than that, base your decision on city and program preference only.