First, it's not women who suspended the redsuits. You don't even know if it was a woman's complaint that led to this. There's nothing to indicate that is the case. You're also acting like only women could possibly be offended by those lyrics.

The engineering faculty has existed for over 50 years, and yet it is only after the mass influx of women into engineering that it's becoming less of a pull up by your bootstraps mentality and more about no one's feelings being hurt, you think this is a coincidence?

Second, you're acting like women are lucky and privileged to be able to "join" the "community" of engineers and have no business wanting their education to take place in a civil environment, and that "equality" means that they must come up with equally insulting chants in order to be taken seriously or accepted.

The engineering faculty was almost entirely male throughout its existence, and has built up a decent reputation for itself just fine. If women want to go into engineering that's great, but it existed without them and doesn't need their participation. This is why if women want to be equal members of the faculty then they should prove that they can handle it, crying sexism at every joke isn't the way to do it.

Third, if those crude songs comprise all of the personality and community spirit that the faculty has, then I'd argue that they really DO need to have all shreds of personality removed.

According to whom? I'm an engineer and I've always found it funny and inviting, engineers are already societal black sheep, I see no need to pander to people who would otherwise look down on you.

If that were the case, all it's doing is creating a toxic environment.

Toxic environment for whom? Are the people going into engineering made out of glass and can't handle some banter? If so, then I highly doubt that they will enjoy the face-through-lye experience that engineering has to offer.

The reality is that those songs are not a huge element of engineering...its not insignificant, but there are definitely other things that redsuits do - building community and school spirit and whatnot - that are excellent, and key parts of their "personality". Redsuits are the most recognizable student group on campus - they're certainly not lacking in personality.

Alright, take away the alcoholism, lewdness and raunchiness, what is left? Handing out crackers?

I personally think it's wrong to suspend the redsuits.
First, they didn't even write the songbook. Second, they are not the only members chanting the words on frosh week. Third, I bet the frosh week chants aren't as provocative as the songbook. Fourth, resuits themselves do a good job at what they do (as discussed in Lamp's post). And I'm sure they don't whisper the lyrics into innocent student ears 24/7.
So I don't even understand how it's their fault.

That being said, the songbook itself is pretty indecent. I mean I cringed just reading 4 lines on the last page. Sorry but that goes beyond the scope of "building a community".

Originally Posted by fatimaa

I personally think it's wrong to suspend the redsuits.
First, they didn't even write the songbook. Second, they are not the only members chanting the words on frosh week. Third, I bet the frosh week chants aren't as provocative as the songbook. Fourth, resuits themselves do a good job at what they do (as discussed in Lamp's post). And I'm sure they don't whisper the lyrics into innocent student ears 24/7.
So I don't even understand how it's their fault.

That being said, the songbook itself is pretty indecent. I mean I cringed just reading 4 lines on the last page. Sorry but that goes beyond the scope of "building a community".

To be fair, there was an entire page dedicated to a warning for the last page stating:

THERE IS NO GOOD PLACE TO SING THIS. PEOPLE WILL BE OFFENDED. THE CONTENT OF THE NEXT PAGE INCLUDES:BLOODY RAPE, MURDEROUS INCEST, CHILD MUTILATION, AND FETAL INGESTION AT THE VERY LEAST

Someone is just very much pissed at MacEng in general. First the fiasco over the CivEng Kipling prank and now banning Redsuit from almost all their activities.

While I do agree that the Redsuit cheers are not everyone's cup of tea, regardless of gender, race or religious background, I have hardly heard anyone seriously complaining about it.

And frankly speaking, I don't think majority of MacEng students even heard of the particular song that is causing this great hulloobulloo. Even the song book itself is not an official MES doc.

As for being sexist, they have as much nuts and balls jokes as **** jokes.

Do they need to change/edit some of the cheers? Maybe, may be not.

Should they be banned from WW and many of the helpful non-academic events based on some non official piece of document?
How is that not discriminating against MacEng?

Originally Posted by WillyH

The engineering faculty has existed for over 50 years, and yet it is only after the mass influx of women into engineering that it's becoming less of a pull up by your bootstraps mentality and more about no one's feelings being hurt, you think this is a coincidence?


The engineering faculty was almost entirely male throughout its existence, and has built up a decent reputation for itself just fine. If women want to go into engineering that's great, but it existed without them and doesn't need their participation. This is why if women want to be equal members of the faculty then they should prove that they can handle it, crying sexism at every joke isn't the way to do it.



According to whom? I'm an engineer and I've always found it funny and inviting, engineers are already societal black sheep, I see no need to pander to people who would otherwise look down on you.

Toxic environment for whom? Are the people going into engineering made out of glass and can't handle some banter? If so, then I highly doubt that they will enjoy the face-through-lye experience that engineering has to offer.

Alright, take away the alcoholism, lewdness and raunchiness, what is left? Handing out crackers?

Look at you, you warrior. Must be so strong to be able to join in on all those cheers during welcome week.

Originally Posted by WillyH

The engineering faculty was almost entirely male throughout its existence, and has built up a decent reputation for itself just fine. If women want to go into engineering that's great, but it existed without them and doesn't need their participation. This is why if women want to be equal members of the faculty then they should prove that they can handle it, crying sexism at every joke isn't the way to do it.

Again, no evidence it was women who were "crying sexism".
And again with your absolutely astonishing display of ignorance. Equality (gender equality, race equality, etc) are enshrined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as RIGHTS. You do not need to prove anything in order to enter a job or field of education and have it be free of sexual harassment and/or degrading comments. If you don't understand that basic concept, then there's a much bigger problem than the redsuits' songbook.

According to whom? I'm an engineer and I've always found it funny and inviting, engineers are already societal black sheep, I see no need to pander to people who would otherwise look down on you.

I really don't understand why you keep saying engineers are "societal black sheep". All of the faculties get made fun of to some extent; engineers no more than anyone else. And even if they were marginalized, that doesn't give them the right to get away with things that any other school group would get sanctioned for. This isn't a deliberate attack against the engineers. If it was any other faculty, they would have done the same thing.

Toxic environment for whom? Are the people going into engineering made out of glass and can't handle some banter? If so, then I highly doubt that they will enjoy the face-through-lye experience that engineering has to offer.

Those lyrics are not "banter", and being able to succeed in the engineering program is in no way related to how much you enjoy singing lyrics that advocate rape.

Alright, take away the alcoholism, lewdness and raunchiness, what is left? Handing out crackers?

Enthusiasm, creativity, a very bold presence that does a lot to foster pride within the engineering faculty.

I like the redsuits, in general. Yes, sometimes they are over-the-top, but 99% of the time it's all in good fun, even if borderline unacceptable.
During redsuits application time, one group did a prank that involved running through MDCL 1305 with a giant (at least six-foot) model of a ***** on a wagon. And afterwards I overheard two of the workers at the Tim Horton's talking about it in absolute SHOCK. They weren't offended, at least I don't think so, they just couldn't believe what they had seen - it was hilarious. The whole thing was completely inappropriate, but hilarious, and there was no real harm being done.

There's a world of difference between that and "S&M Man".

Besides, it's one thing to say the words (or have them written down). The thing that the administrators are worried about is precisely what you keep referring to as a good thing - that the engineering community ends up revolving around sentiments like that. Once that sort of attitude becomes entrenched in a culture/community, it's not that big of a leap from there to acting on it, because it's been deemed socially acceptable. That's why they took such heavy action; they don't want to be seen condoning it, implicitly (which they have done for the past several decades) or explicitly.

I still think banning them from WW is too harsh though, and will do more harm than good.

This is why if women want to be equal members of the faculty then they should prove that they can handle it, crying sexism at every joke isn't the way to do it.

This is true, in fact for all we know, the dean or whatever just didn't realize that the thing wasn't common and in fact contained within that small group of students, got scared for University's reputation (read: his sweet job placement) and decided to get safe by punishing redsuits and announcing it to the world. Which actually made things worse.

Redsuits were why I never partook in welcome week activities; rude, obnoxious, and crude/sexist. No thanks. They certainly had a lot of fun, and a lot of that is done in private, but it's embarassing. I don't care that 'its tradition'; its a load of crap.

Hey Leoku and Grover.

With how much you have been hating on this thread and any conversation, why dont you guys stop acting biased towards the eng faculty?
If i or anyone else made the comments being made in this thread against engineers to a group of anything other faculty, you would be taking them down and giving out your terrifying infraction points.

Yes redsuits are over the top, but they made my WW memorable beyond anything i could have expected. Going into your first year is a completely new experience, but they made sure the transition was smooth and seamless. Nothing that the redsuits do is intended to bring harm to others. Its the people (god forbid i actually say women), who take offence to comments that arent even being directed at them that are making this into a much bigger problem than it is.

But again Grover, great job handing out infraction points when its engineering that is being hated on

^Your 3rd paragraph is what I agree whole heartedly on. But everyone is entitled to what they think as long as it isn't blatant hate.

Besides, this just exploded. It will blow over soon I'm sure

Lol damn some people went off, bolds and underlines and everything ahaaaaa
#SoRattled

So 4 Engineers (who probably graduated) action represent the whole faculty of engineering. Wonderful reaction from the dean of engineering.

Seeing that he is Indian, i am sure he know that the action of his countrymen does not represent his country as a whole.

Originally Posted by BenDover

With how much you have been hating on this thread and any conversation, why dont you guys stop acting biased towards the eng faculty?
If i or anyone else made the comments being made in this thread against engineers to a group of anything other faculty, you would be taking them down and giving out your terrifying infraction points.

Originally Posted by BenDover

But again Grover, great job handing out infraction points when its engineering that is being hated on

So wait: am I being biased towards or against engineers? At first you say I'm biased towards them, but then contradict yourself by saying that I give other faculties preferential treatment.

Okay, no big deal. Maybe they meant to say that I'm biased against engineers. Wait, but after that, "great job giving out infraction points when it's engineering being hated on," what? Doesn't this completely change the premise of their argument - again?

I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic with that last line. Then, why would you say that? You have no way of knowing whether or not I have issued infractions in this thread up until now, so why would you make the assumption that I haven't, especially if you cannot be completely sure?

Okay, so let's say I'm biased against engineers. Isn't this thread primarily targeting Red Suits? That segmented part of engineering society at McMaster that is exclusive? That is, not every person in engineering can encompass being a Red Suit?

The entire engineering faculty ≠ red suits. Can you cite these comments you purport to have found that are harsh towards engineers? The best I've been able to find follows:

Originally Posted by WillyH

According to whom? I'm an engineer and I've always found it funny and inviting, engineers are already societal black sheep, I see no need to pander to people who would otherwise look down on you.

Are there comments in this thread that are critical of Red Suits? Yes. This is a hot-button issue considering that they were suspended just only yesterday. Generally, active people are going to fall into one of two camps: they are either for or against the suspension. Those who are critical of the Red Suits' actions do not necessarily apply the same sentiments to all engineers, especially considering the fact that many people who have participated in this thread are engineers themselves.

Originally Posted by BenDover

Its the people (god forbid i actually say women), who take offence to comments that arent even being directed at them that are making this into a much bigger problem than it is.

Actually, my initial involvement in this thread came about when another user tried to inject an unrelated opinion about someone else's faith into their argument. I preemptively warned against doing so because it was malicious and completely unnecessary - in the past, comments like these have only served to detract attention away from the main issue. Those posts have since been removed due to complaints we received, and the removal itself was not my doing.

Originally Posted by BenDover

..Its the people (god forbid i actually say women), who take offence to comments that arent even being directed at them that are making this into a much bigger problem than it is.

...

You don't have to be the target of a remark to take offense to it. The commentary here and on social media speaks to this doubly.

You don't have to be the target of a remark to take offense to it. The commentary here and on social media speaks to this doubly.

Yes yes, I'm well aware that there are more than enough white knights out there to protect every single maiden against any sort of insult, whether real or fictional. This situation is a complete joke, a cherished student organization is getting gutted for a piece of literature that is only loosely tied to the current state of the group?
I'd even be understanding if it actually promoted negative treatment of female engineers, but any engineer can tell you that women are basically worshiped in the faculty, that any girl can almost be guaranteed to be treated favourably by her peers on the sole merit of possessing a birth canal.

You do not need to prove anything in order to enter a job or field of education and have it be free of sexual harassment and/or degrading comments.

I wasn't implying that female engineers should be mistreated. But at the same time male engineers are under no obligation to ignore the fact that women generally dislike the field and if one claims otherwise and wants to be treated like one of the guys then the burden of proof is on them. It's like a skinny guy saying that he can lift 300 pounds, it' not impossible but you rarely see it happen.
And before you come screeching that women love engineering just as much as men, can you please explain to me how even though there are 9% more female than male undergraduate students at mcmaster, that you would only see a few of them in an engineering classroom?


But how could I forget, you could apparently rape women with your mind so of course we have to ban anything that offends strong independent womyn, just watch this crusader fight against evil white male rapeculture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzdf4V7Cf_M