Let me preface this by saying that statements such as “better” in regards to faculties and degrees are hardly a simple measurement. How do you define “better?”

If you consider better to mean most positive contribution to Humanity, then it could mean a number of things.

Is Plant Pathology (Science) the best faculty? I believe that the greatest human being who has ever lived is Dr. Norman Borlaug. Dr. Borlaug has a PhD in Plat Pathology and is the only person who has ever lived to receive the Nobel Peace Prize, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the Congressional Gold Medal, and the highest honours from the National Academy of Sciences. It is estimated that Dr. Borlaug’s research in improving crop yields has saved over 1 Billion (1,000,000,000) people from starvation.

Perhaps you think Ronald Reagan was great. He studied Economics and Sociology.

Perhaps you think that inventions from Engineers like Archimedes have done more good. Where would agriculture be, after all, without the irrigation made possible by Archimedes screw?

Perhaps you think the ideas of Western Philosophy are the most important to our current success. Then you might praise Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

The debate of which faculty is best is as difficult to declare a winner as the debate between who was the best person. I obviously favour Borlaug, but an argument with a Churchill fan would be definitely hard to win. It would likely end with both sides agreeing that both men were indeed great thinkers and leaders who did a great deal to better their fellow man.

Case in point was the debate in the Sil between two Sci-Fi fans over who was better, Kirk or Picard. Kirk saved Earth from the Alien Probe and from V’ger while Picard saved Earth from the Borg and a Temporal Anomaly. Who’s the greater hero? Maybe Picard wins because Professor X could mind control Denny Crane? The debate descends into ridiculousness.


However, the better that I implied and that Lorend insinuates is not about absolutes. It is not even a simple case of defining “best” by highest average wage upon graduating (a debate, for obvious reasons, humanities students tend not to engage in). The debate, in this instance, is that a graduate of a Professional School is (or is not) more qualified for that Profession than someone without that training. I believe that they are.

Once again, I have to emphasize that this is not an issue of better or worse. It’s an issue of relevant training. I would take a hair cut from a Barber School grad over a hair cut from an Astrophysicist any day. The issue of education is one of relevance to the job at hand.

A team of engineers with degrees in engineering are clearly the best people to design and build a bridge.
A team of surgeons and nurses with degrees in medicine and nursing are clearly the best people to be doing open heart surgery.
A group of accountants with business degrees specializing in accounting are clearly the best people to be doing corporate tax returns.
A law firm with lawyers, who have law degrees, are clearly the best people to represent you in a court of law.
A team of editors, with humanities degrees, are clearly the best people to work for a publisher reading submitted fictional manuscripts.
Obama’s economic advisory team is made up of business leaders and economists who have advanced degrees in business and economics.

I’m not saying that a Humanities or Social Science student doesn’t spend as much time on their studies as a Commerce or Engineering student. What I am saying is that the content of your 10+ hour 10 page paper matters. An engineer who spends 10+ hours building a toboggan out of concrete clearly knows more about working with concrete than an English major who spends 10+ hours writing about Hamlet. If I want to know more about Hamlet, I’ll ask the English major. If I want to build something out of concrete, I’ll ask the materials engineer.

Professional Finance Positions (like, say the CFO of a corporation) have similar considerations. Spending a term learning about Quebec separatism or the politics of ancient Greece have little to do with the CFO position. Spending two terms learning about Generally Accepted Accounting Principles and how to properly apply them to Financial and Managerial Accounting (two courses all Commerce students take) is clearly relevant.

If anyone could do everything, then we’d all be in one giant Arts & Science faculty. Any history student can track the evolution of mankind from groups of nomadic generalists, towards modern specialization. The fact that the Humanities have so many specializations is proof. Real world occupations reflect this specialization trend and Universities cater their programs to best educate people to perform best in their fields. This is especially true of the Professional Schools at McMaster: the Degroote School of Business, the Degroote School of Medicine & the Faculty of Engineering.

With that in mind, Humanities & Social Science students undermine themselves with arguments like the one you present. I know someone with an English degree who works as a proof-reader/editor for a publishing company. I freely admit that I couldn’t do his job as well as he can, however, he freely admits that he couldn’t do mine as well as I can. By claiming that a Political Science major knows just as much about Finance and Business as a Commerce major you are inviting bigotry by (falsely) undermining the degree I worked hard to earn. If you’re going to insinuate that my Business degree fails to prepare me for the Business world, then perhaps your faculty is guilty of the same bigotry you so protest.

Did you just type that all out in times new roman?

I'm sure there are exceptions; however, I don't expect most math students to write novels better than English majors. Nor do I expect individuals, with an undergrad degree alone in music to perform an operation without prior training. (I understand there are music undergrads in med school, but they've been trained in med school ...).

So yeah, I'd assume that a person with a commerce degree would be well equipped to deal with finances.

Originally Posted by jesus

So yeah, I'd assume that a person with a commerce degree would be well equipped to deal with finances.

I've got managerial experience within the MSU and outside scholastic settings. I've taken the two Commerce accounting courses, and did well.

But I'm an Economics Poli Sci major.

Explain to me why I am any less qualified than a Commerce major.

I've been in the Commerce faculty and have seen the quality of some of the students. I've been in first year Commerce project and had 6 out of 7 of my fellow group members unable to write a single paragraph of english. They are still in the Faculty.

The sort of thinking that Commerce and Business degrees qualify you for such jobs have been completely been proven wrong. People with B-School degrees thinking that they know better than Economists have managed to destroy some very large banks in the US, completely cripple the Financial and Housing markets, and in the process have screwed the rest of us out of jobs while awarding themselves 7-figure bonuses.

Please stop giving me any bullshit about the amazingness of a Commerce degree over any other. We all get an equally shitty education and are thrust into work environments where none of the things we learn actually matter. It comes down to our resourcefulness, and our ability to work with others.

McColl, Ian's father is one of the foremost HR lawyers in Canada. If pedigree mattered as much as you claim your degree matters, he owns your ass as far as qualification.

And for the record, more Economics and Engineering majors hold CFO positions in Fortune 500 companies than Business majors.

Originally Posted by Alex McColl

Let me preface this by saying that statements such as “better” in regards to faculties and degrees are hardly a simple measurement. How do you define “better?” [...] By claiming that a Political Science major knows just as much about Finance and Business as a Commerce major you are inviting bigotry by (falsely) undermining the degree I worked hard to earn. If you’re going to insinuate that my Business degree fails to prepare me for the Business world, then perhaps your faculty is guilty of the same bigotry you so protest.

So according to your argument I'm not a good PTM with absolutely no knowledge of Accounting, HR or Marketing because I have a Humanities/Soc Sci degree. And by extension, neither are my co-managers who are in Astrophysics, Social Work and Biology.

Going by the same argument, please explain to me how there are so many non-Commerce grads in the MBA program offered at Mac. I didn't think they would be cut out for the program, because apparently they lack the experience of a B.Comm.

A lot of experience in the business world can be gained through life and/or job experience. There are plenty of incredibly successful small business owners that don't have commerce degrees, and for some of them even a high school diploma or GED. You can get hired at Marketing firms without business experience or even a post-secondary education (I've seen it done). Similarly, you can work your way up to general management positions at a lot of different jobs.

Also, just so you're up-to-speed on the MSU and the different part-time jobs available, the MSU Accounting Clerks do less accounting and budgeting in their job than I (or any of the other PTMs) do in mine. And to my knowledge only one of the four is in Commerce.

Originally Posted by deadpool

I've got managerial experience within the MSU and outside scholastic settings. I've taken the two Commerce accounting courses, and did well.

two? o rly?

Originally Posted by deadpool

I've been in the Commerce faculty and have seen the quality of some of the students. I've been in first year Commerce project and had 6 out of 7 of my fellow group members unable to write a single paragraph of english. They are still in the Faculty.

I forget what kind of evidence this is, but citing 6 out of 7 people as not being able to write english is not really any defense.

Originally Posted by deadpool

The sort of thinking that Commerce and Business degrees qualify you for such jobs have been completely been proven wrong. People with B-School degrees thinking that they know better than Economists have managed to destroy some very large banks in the US, completely cripple the Financial and Housing markets, and in the process have screwed the rest of us out of jobs while awarding themselves 7-figure bonuses.

Yes, Business grads are the cause of the current financial crisis.
No banks or financial intermediaries hires economists.

Originally Posted by deadpool

Please stop giving me any bullshit about the amazingness of a Commerce degree over any other. We all get an equally shitty education and are thrust into work environments where none of the things we learn actually matter. It comes down to our resourcefulness, and our ability to work with others.

With regards to a finance position, a Commerce student would have taken more accounting courses. And courses in other areas of business, marketing, organization, etc.
Compared to someone without that degree they techincally do not have the same skills.

Originally Posted by deadpool

McColl, Ian's father is one of the foremost HR lawyers in Canada. If pedigree mattered as much as you claim your degree matters, he owns your ass as far as qualification.

It doesn't. Pedigree doesn't say anything about how someone could manage finances.
An HR Lawyer probably wouldn't be able to manage finances that well.

But of course, I personally do not know what VP finance does. Like, does he try to balance books at all ([email protected])?

Originally Posted by lorend

So according to your argument I'm not a good PTM with absolutely no knowledge of Accounting, HR or Marketing because I have a Humanities/Soc Sci degree. And by extension, neither are my co-managers who are in Astrophysics, Social Work and Biology.

Not sure what your job is. PTM? wat
Any maybe you're not a good PTM.

Originally Posted by lorend

Going by the same argument, please explain to me how there are so many non-Commerce grads in the MBA program offered at Mac. I didn't think they would be cut out for the program, because apparently they lack the experience of a B.Comm.

Many B. Comm's do not do an MBA actually. You learn pretty a LOT of the same things in an MBA program as a business undergrad program.

For a job that requires accounting work, then I would say a Commerce student is more cut out for it.

But of course, any person can do pretty much any job if they have the ability and relevant experience.

Originally Posted by FireDragoonX

Not sure what your job is. PTM? wat
Any maybe you're not a good PTM.


Many B. Comm's do not do an MBA actually. You learn pretty a LOT of the same things in an MBA program as a business undergrad program.

For a job that requires accounting work, then I would say a Commerce student is more cut out for it.

But of course, any person can do pretty much any job if they have the ability and relevant experience.

PTM = Part Time Manager. Students who manage MSU departments do so on a part time basis. They handle department HR, budgeting, purchases, events, risk management.. everything you'd expect a department manager to do.

Oh, and Lorend is one of the finest PTMs the MSU has right now..so yeah..

And as a general FYI, the MSU VP Finance is not an accountant... that's why the MSU has two full time people in accounting, a staff of student accountants, a comptroller (with a CA and all of their quals) and a General Manager.

FireDragoonX,

You clearly have 0 idea about what the VP Finance does. Taking the Commerce 2AB3 is pretty much the only thing that would be beneficial to the position.

As for the 6 out of 7, it's a sample used to make a point. Pay attention in Stats.

Are you just daft or do you think the VP Finance is sitting up there trying to make decisions that impact stock prices? They deal with managing the operating fund and the finances of the MSU's services as well as all HR issues.

As for the people reponsible for the financial crisis... google Andrew Lahde.

Originally Posted by deadpool

FireDragoonX,

You clearly have 0 idea about what the VP Finance does. Taking the Commerce 2AB3 is pretty much the only thing that would be beneficial to the position.

How'd you figure that out? Was it:
"But of course, I personally do not know what VP finance does. Like, does he try to balance books at all ([email protected])?"

Originally Posted by deadpool

As for the 6 out of 7, it's a sample used to make a point. Pay attention in Stats.

I'm pretty sure I know more Stats than you.
You were using anecdotal evidence and were generalizing to all Commerce students.

Originally Posted by deadpool

Are you just daft or do you think the VP Finance is sitting up there trying to make decisions that impact stock prices? They deal with managing the operating fund and the finances of the MSU's services as well as all HR issues.

As for the people reponsible for the financial crisis... google Andrew Lahde.

Stock prices? No, I never mentioned anything related to the field of "Finance". I specifically wrote accounting, organization and marketing.

And I did google Andrew Lahde. It gave me no information on the financial crisis nor did it tell me that Business grads were the cause of it.

I would take a hair cut from a Barber School grad over a hair cut from an Astrophysicist any day.

I can actually cut hair pretty decently, thank you.

Originally Posted by jesus

I'm sure there are exceptions; however, I don't expect most math students to write novels better than English majors. Nor do I expect individuals, with an undergrad degree alone in music to perform an operation without prior training. (I understand there are music undergrads in med school, but they've been trained in med school ...).

So yeah, I'd assume that a person with a commerce degree would be well equipped to deal with finances.

Completely agree with Rohan in this case! And that's not because I have the same clone major(econ+polisci) as him. Commerce students by no means can claim to be better managers then an individual from say engineering or science. There are alot of other elements involved and required in a succesful manager and knowing where a debit/credit section is in a ledger or having knowledge of strategic corporate behaviour by no means makes them better managers.

Stepping into bias sector now Personally from what I've heard from corporate professionals as well as read, a commerce degree at undergrad level isn't really worth as much as people think it is(Unless you want to join the rat race early!)

Alot of companies would prefer if a new employee has a social science/humanities/science background for undergrad and THEN goes for a MBA, because(I might be wrong here) essentially an MBA is just about as qualifed as a BBA/Bcomm to do the same job in the corporate sector innit? So I really don't see the point when commerce students act like snobs and pretend to be superior just because their faculty has a fancy name(Degroote,Rotman, Ivey)!

Also Alot of what you do as a manager/corporate employee or in real life is "usually" far far different from your education, alot of times people collect 2-3 degrees and then end up doing a job where none of it is applied! So your 10 or 11 in commerce 2A03 probably isn't going to serve much of a purpose in real life!