Ok Rohan c'mon now, this is ridiculous.

You clearly have 0 idea about what the VP Finance does. Taking the Commerce 2AB3 is pretty much the only thing that would be beneficial to the position.

How would managerial accounting be the only important course? Considering you need to take financial accounting as a requisite. But the job of the VP finance is not just being a CFO. The VP finance is in large part responsible for making business decisions, how to spend the MSU's money. Take for instance decisions about Quarters, you need marketing which would be Commerce 1E03, 2MA3 and 3MC3, all marketing courses that a business student takes. You don't think there is any benefit to learning how to properly write 80 page marketing reports that identify problems as well as laying out feasibly and cost effective solutions. The VP finance is also in part responsible for HR decisions. How about commerce 3BC3 which is Human Resource Management which involves interactive decision making and simulations that show the effects of HR related decisions, budgeting and how they effect the companies production. You could even throw in there that the VP Finance is in part responsible for the coordination of different groups and clubs under the MSU, so you could include operations mangement in there as well. The MSU also takes surpluses from the Radio station and invests them in "Marketable Securities", so the VP finance could benefit from even basic courses in investing of which I could give you at least 5-10 that are offered at the business school.

In fact, since we have the comptroller coming in, accounting would be one of the lesser beneficial classes that commerce has to offer.

Are you just daft or do you think the VP Finance is sitting up there trying to make decisions that impact stock prices?

Obviously the VP finance is not a stock broker so he would not be a market maker, however, with 3 million dollars of students money, I would hope that they would have a small idea about investing.

You can brag all you want about how great your degree is, how great his or her degree is, but who cares. Sure there are CFO's who are social science majors and there are novelists who are lawyers, but the fact is each area of study prepares you for a career in a particular field. The VP Finance should be in charge of finance, marketing, HR, and some accounting. All classes that are mandatory for commerce students. However, the best resources that commerce students have, RESOURCES. One teacher I had is a consultant and her job takes her around North America, for example while teaching she was away for a week to do consulting which meant taking 75 Hershey's executives and touring them around factories in the Southern US showing them how to improve operations. Resources like her, perhaps asking questions about the operations and efficiency of MSU's services, can prove to be much more valuable than simple knowledge.

Alot of companies would prefer if a new employee has a social science/humanities/science background for undergrad and THEN goes for a MBA, because(I might be wrong here) essentially an MBA is just about as qualifed as a BBA/Bcomm to do the same job in the corporate sector innit?

I just simply do not know where these generalizations come from. Why do you think the business internship programs runs out of the business school? An MBA is not the same as a Bcomm. Think about this, I could get a poli sci degree and go to Med School. An MBA is an important degree, in fact, a lot of firms (particularly in Finance) won't hire you without an MBA. But if you look at the classes the you would take in an Honours B. Comm. You learn about all facets of business and administration. To say that a degree in business is pointless when you can go onto get an MBA from any faculty is a ridiculous ideology.

I take it you have not read the role of VP Finance within the MSU? Or know how the BOD/Services reporting structure works? Or furthermore know how any of the services function day-to-day?

Originally Posted by AndrewC

The VP finance is in large part responsible for making business decisions, how to spend the MSU's money. Take for instance decisions about Quarters, you need marketing which would be Commerce 1E03, 2MA3 and 3MC3, all marketing courses that a business student takes. You don't think there is any benefit to learning how to properly write 80 page marketing reports that identify problems as well as laying out feasibly and cost effective solutions.

VP Finance has nothing to do with marketing for services. That's something the services do on their own; they're the ones who either design advertisements and/or pay/ask other services/people to design things for them.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

The VP finance is also in part responsible for HR decisions. How about commerce 3BC3 which is Human Resource Management which involves interactive decision making and simulations that show the effects of HR related decisions, budgeting and how they effect the companies production.

HR decisions like what exactly?

Originally Posted by AndrewC

You can brag all you want about how great your degree is, how great his or her degree is, but who cares.

Did you not just refute your argument?? You keep on saying how beneficial having a commerce degree is, and why taking finance, marketing, HR and accounting courses gives a BComm grad practical experience in the real world...

I take it you have not read the role of VP Finance within the MSU? Or know how the BOD/Services reporting structure works? Or furthermore know how any of the services function day-to-day?

Yes I have. Do you pay attention to what the MSU does? The formal "Role of the VP finance" has been significantly reduced as their accounting duties will be all but eliminated from their portfolio with the comptroller coming in. After briefly talking to Ian, the role is much more about decision making, considering the MSU hasn't actually prepared annual budgets (at least the incoming VP hasn't) the "role" of the VP Finance is significantly outdated. Don't assume that I am talking about all of this without first reading the appropriate bylaws and operating procedures.

VP Finance has nothing to do with marketing for services. That's something the services do on their own; they're the ones who either design advertisements and/or pay/ask other services/people to design things for them.

Marketing is NOT advertising. Advertising is often associated with marketing. I encourage you to take marketing, because it is very relevant. When Quarters is going down the drain the VP Finance, is in a very large part responsible for ensuring it gets back on its feet. You need to identify the problems and come up with solutions to those problems. A marketing report in lehman's terms takes a business, and finds out how to improve it by identifying Strengths and weaknesses, target markets etc. Advertising is associcated only with the implementation plan, a small part of the overal marketing report.

HR decisions like what exactly?

HR issues are not made public. However Ian has told me that the VP Finance does play a role in HR decisions. I would assume since they are in charge of the MSU's money, and that money goes to employees, I assume issues such as wages, hirings and firings etc. I don't think that is very hard to understand.

Did you not just refute your argument?? You keep on saying how beneficial having a commerce degree is, and why taking finance, marketing, HR and accounting courses gives a BComm grad practical experience in the real world...

I do not brag about a commerce degree. I believe that commerce is an appropriate degree to the job. But this constant bickering over what is better and what is worse is tiring and pointless. Like I said, you don't have to have a commerce degree to do the job but that doesn't mean that it isn't beneficial to have the degree. No degree is better then the next, however they teach each student a diverse set of skills, some more appropriate to the next. I am not saying the degree is pointless, I am saying this stupid bickering over what is better is.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

I just simply do not know where these generalizations come from. Why do you think the business internship programs runs out of the business school? An MBA is not the same as a Bcomm. Think about this, I could get a poli sci degree and go to Med School. An MBA is an important degree, in fact, a lot of firms (particularly in Finance) won't hire you without an MBA. But if you look at the classes the you would take in an Honours B. Comm. You learn about all facets of business and administration. To say that a degree in business is pointless when you can go onto get an MBA from any faculty is a ridiculous ideology.

Mr Caterine I never said "a buisness degree is pointless" please refrain from misquoting me. I was simply pointing out that all the "facets of buisness and administration" that you are going to be learning on a daily basis are going to serve no purpose when in the long run an individual with a MBA is going to be pretty much as effective as you: Hence I said "a commerce degree at undergrad level isn't really worth as much as people think it is(Unless you want to join the rat race early!)".

It would then make sense to get an undergrad in some other field and "educate" and "culture" yourselves. Learn more about how the world works, become a more rational individual by studying philosophy or sociology, study engineering and then(with an MBA) go work for a firm in that field. You will definitely have a better outlook on your job! And this point is only extended by my previous point that in the very long run you only end up employing 10-15% of what you ever learnt in school.

And none of what I said are my generalizations, everything I said has been paraphrased from people with Phd's in economics,people working for fortune 500 companies, teachers and professors; and by all means their words are more credible then a 3rd year student!

Originally Posted by FireDragoonX

Not sure what your job is. PTM? wat
Any maybe you're not a good PTM.


Many B. Comm's do not do an MBA actually. You learn pretty a LOT of the same things in an MBA program as a business undergrad program.

For a job that requires accounting work, then I would say a Commerce student is more cut out for it.

But of course, any person can do pretty much any job if they have the ability and relevant experience.

Exactly my point Mr Andrew! Ian Finlay is no less equipped for the job being a social science student! Nor are the other members like Danielle etc

I would not blame the financial situation on him not having the "knowledge" to be a Vp Finance, I probably would blame it on him being a bad manager as an "individual" but that's just a generalization. I do not know Mr Finlay's work ethics personally nor do I have any knowledge as to how well/badly he has done the job, therefore it would be rather immature to blindly put the finger on him as a scrapegoat for the situation. The annual budget is distributed to a good number of organizations down the chain, the problem lies within every single one of them who aren't making a profit as well as the board of directors would "expect" them too.

"I was simply pointing out that all the "facets of buisness and administration" that you are going to be learning on a daily basis are going to serve no purpose when in the long run an individual with a MBA is going to be pretty much as effective as you"

No, an MBA is actually more effective or should be more effective. In fact, many companies won't higher you to an established position unless you have an MBA degree. However, a business degree is very important in getting an MBA. If you learn about the MBA admissions (at Mac at least) you need at least 1 years work experience in management which you would get with your B. Comm. And to go into an MBA program without a business degree at first, you would be pretty far behind as a lot of MBA classes require assumed knowledge.

It would then make sense to get an undergrad in some other field and "educate" and "culture" yourselves. Learn more about how the world works, become a more rational individual by studying philosophy or sociology, study engineering and then(with an MBA) go work for a firm in that field.

Again, the amount of knowledge you receive from a B. Comm. is very important to an MBA program. Don't assume that an MBA is like first year commerce. I am pursuing a minor in both Poli-sci and philosophy, I am "educating" myself however I do not feel that I would be capable to going into an MBA program without what I have learned in business. And why would I want to do engineering? I am specializing in finance, engineer management does not interest me at all.

And none of what I said are my generalizations, everything I said has been paraphrased from people with Phd's in economics,people working for fortune 500 companies, teachers and professors; and by all means their words are more credible then a 3rd year student!

Please, list these sources. Because I interact on a daily basis with professors and teachers who many have PhDs and have worked for fortune 500 companies, and not one would agree that the smartest route for someone to take to an MBA would be outside of a B. Comm. In addition, I know people who are venture capitalists, own their own finance, marketing and accounting firms and again, I haven't heard any of them express this notion.

I would not blame the financial situation on him not having the "knowledge" to be a Vp Finance, I probably would blame it on him being a bad manager as an "individual" but that's just a generalization.

First the financial situation is not his fault. Look at the audits, it is something he has inherited. Do I think he has done an immaculate job at getting the MSU out of this crisis? No, but do i think he has done a bad job? No. Think about how many commerce and particularly finance or accounting majors have been VP Finance, and then look at their current financial troubles. I am not saying that you have to be in commerce to do the job, Ian is doing fine from what i have seen, however to ignore the tools that a commerce student is equiped with that could benefit the MSU financially is ignorance.

The annual budget is distributed to a good number of organizations down the chain, the problem lies within every single one of them who aren't making a profit as well as the board of directors would "expect" them too.

I have been unable to find the annual budget for the MSU, in fact, I don't believe there is one (at least not one done during Ian's term). Another business concept, if all of your employees are doing a crappy job, you cannot scape goat a company's problems to them.

However we have gotten off topic. Noone will be running for VP Finance with an MBA position. So even talking about an MBA is pointless in this thread.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

Yes I have. Do you pay attention to what the MSU does?

If I didn't pay attention the service I'm a PTM of would be in a hell of a lot of trouble.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

After briefly talking to Ian, the role is much more about decision making, considering the MSU hasn't actually prepared annual budgets (at least the incoming VP hasn't) the "role" of the VP Finance is significantly outdated.

And who exactly is the incoming VP Finance? SRA elections haven't happened yet, nor will they for several weeks.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

Marketing is NOT advertising. Advertising is often associated with marketing. I encourage you to take marketing, because it is very relevant.

Advertising is a component of marketing, which was my point. It seems that there has been a semantics miscommunication between the two of us. As for taking marketing courses, I never thought about it in the past as I was more concerned with fullfilling degree requirements. I don't have the option to take any courses in the future, either.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

HR issues are not made public. However Ian has told me that the VP Finance does play a role in HR decisions. I would assume since they are in charge of the MSU's money, and that money goes to employees, I assume issues such as wages, hirings and firings etc.

Although VP Finance may sit on a hiring board, they are not directly involved with hiring for all services. If I recall correctly, VP Finance is only directly responsible for two services; Marmour and the Sil. Other hirings/firings for the most part are either decided by other hiring committees and/or through the VP Admin, or through permanent full-time managers.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

I do not brag about a commerce degree. I believe that commerce is an appropriate degree to the job. But this constant bickering over what is better and what is worse is tiring and pointless. Like I said, you don't have to have a commerce degree to do the job but that doesn't mean that it isn't beneficial to have the degree. No degree is better then the next, however they teach each student a diverse set of skills, some more appropriate to the next. I am not saying the degree is pointless, I am saying this stupid bickering over what is better is.

Your opinion is different than some of your commerce peers, it seems. And for that I commend you.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

However, a business degree is very important in getting an MBA. If you learn about the MBA admissions (at Mac at least) you need at least 1 years work experience in management which you would get with your B. Comm. And to go into an MBA program without a business degree at first, you would be pretty far behind as a lot of MBA classes require assumed knowledge.

Only 33% of MBA students at Mac are from a BComm background, and 29% are from science. I just find this very odd...

Originally Posted by AndrewC

Noone will be running for VP Finance with an MBA position. So even talking about an MBA is pointless in this thread.

You need to be an undergraduate student to run for a BOD position.

Exactly As Danielle said, You are a small minority of humble/rational commerce students who can be categorized as non-arrogant! There must be a reason why we are being so assertive! Think about it! All commerce student I've met are arrogant smugs..don't know how exactly they re-socialize you; but It does make sense to me! (A "good" buisnessman must be ruthless and profit orientated, ethics/fair buisness practices and general human empathy get in the way of their profit motives so are generally ignored)...even my friends from highschool have turned into ones!

p.s: My sources are direct dialouge, I was seriously considering going into commerce. I was advised against it by just about every single distinguished academic/counsellor I've met, I'm assuming your interaction is with people IN the commerce society/faculty they obviously woudn't say whatever i'm stating to you lot now would they?! Anyways I think we are digressing, this is my last post in regards to the whole Bcomm/Mba argument. cheers!

If I didn't pay attention the service I'm a PTM of would be in a hell of a lot of trouble.

What are you responsible for as a PTM if you don't mind me asking.

And who exactly is the incoming VP Finance? SRA elections haven't happened yet, nor will they for several weeks.

Yes I know this. By incoming, I mean that the "Annual Budget" is prepared by the outgoing VP finance. So I mean to say that since Ian was the "Incoming" he would not have made a budget. I am also led to believe that the MSU associate budget with annual report.

Advertising is a component of marketing, which was my point. It seems that there has been a semantics miscommunication between the two of us.

Initially you stated that marketing was left up to the individual unit. You associated marketing with putting up posters and advertising. Marketing is so much more, and there is no way that the managers at Quarters are making marketing reports. Marketing of MSU services should be taken care of by the VP's. Advertising is a possible result of a marketing plan as an implementation strategy however it is not necessarily a component of all plans.

Although VP Finance may sit on a hiring board, they are not directly involved with hiring for all services. If I recall correctly, VP Finance is only directly responsible for two services; Marmour and the Sil. Other hirings/firings for the most part are either decided by other hiring committees and/or through the VP Admin, or through permanent full-time managers.

I don't talk about things without asking first. The current VP Finance expressed that he is involved in HR duties. I can only assume it has to do with the financial consequences of HR decisions.

Your opinion is different than some of your commerce peers, it seems. And for that I commend you.

I suppose, I don't even own a burberry scarf.

A "good" buisnessman must be ruthless and profit orientated, ethics/fair buisness practices and general human empathy get in the way of their profit motives so are generally ignored

I don't mean to be rude, however this is one of the worst stereotypes I have ever heard. Bill Gates, is the head of the wealthiest charitable foundation in the world and Warren Buffet (richest man in the world who is a venture capitalist) has left in his will all of his money to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation.

There is no doubt the study of business attracts a certain type of person, but to generalize in such a way isn't fair. Interesting facts, personal relationships and trust in fact between people and communities blossomed because of business. Before there was money people would often trade services and would only do so based on trust and morality. Business at one point was seen as a way for people to interact, bond and trust eachother.

I'm assuming your interaction is with people IN the commerce society/faculty they obviously woudn't say whatever i'm stating to you lot now would they?

There is no doubt however you need to realize, especially in business, many of the professors work separate careers (often as consultants) so lying in the best interest of the University is hardly something on their agenda. But knowing many of my classmates you encounter people who's parents are CFOs, I have family friends who are heads of investment firms and CEO's or companies. Anything is possible with hard work but your learning curve is shortened with the appropriate tools.

Anyways I think we are digressing, this is my last post in regards to the whole Bcomm/Mba argument. cheers!

I don't know where it came from anyway, but it is hardly relevant to the MSU finances so I agree it should be dropped.

Yes I'm sure Andrew, Stereotypes Do come from somewhere don't they? And this stereotype isn't exactly Racist/Ethnic/Religious is it? So according to theory there must be some rational element behind it. You aren't denying Buisness works on profit maximization and cost reduction, And you know very well how they go about doing it! But I'm really not going to argue any further, because I just don't need to! The current Financial crisis/Sweat shops/Unfair practices can be blamed on the world's orthopedics maybe?
And As far as Bill Gates and Warren Buffet et all are concerned, you must be kidding me! What else do you think they will do with all that money? That doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is still a bullying monopoly. And what about the nice humble folk who serve as board of directors for GM, A Private uber-expesive jet to Washington to "beg" for their financial future/bail out? WOW
There might be a small minority who are decent people, but by and large the corporate high ups are ruthless "pigs". That is exactly how they make to the top of the ladder, nice people don't get that far up

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

That doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is still a bullying monopoly.

Which is why I own a mac