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Provost's Honours List

 
Old 02-26-2009 at 06:31 PM   #16
micadjems
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I know a final year health sci student that for a final course is doing an improv class of sorts for highschoolers. for HEALTH SCI. He's going to get a 12.

I realize that there are parts that clearly involve smarts, and you need smarts to get in it, but the marks IMO are completely... well.. separate from other faculties, I would say. They have high marks so they can show off how many people from Mac got into med school with 12s.

Am I wrong? Has anyone else gotten to choose their marks in any of their courses? I've had self-marked assignments and tests, but they're looked over and validated.
Old 02-26-2009 at 07:23 PM   #17
myoozik
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To those familiar with chemistry all I can say is:

A different application of Markovnikov's Rule.

miniwheats, nerual like this.
Old 02-26-2009 at 07:25 PM   #18
FireDragoonX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph2313 View Post
ok, i think its unfair to say that they ar einflated especially when we dont knwo the whole story. the health sci kids are the ones with the highest admissions coming into any program which means that they are SMART, which also means they are dedicated and have good work ethic which could translate into a 12 average at MAC. if most of them follow that model then obviously most of them would be on provost's and presidents awards
a lot of people have high averages coming into uni.

Their grades are inflated. Ask health sci students.
Their professors, and their dean, make it clear to them that they will be given good grades.
Old 02-26-2009 at 07:27 PM   #19
casey.park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micadjems View Post
I know a final year health sci student that for a final course is doing an improv class of sorts for highschoolers. for HEALTH SCI. He's going to get a 12.

I realize that there are parts that clearly involve smarts, and you need smarts to get in it, but the marks IMO are completely... well.. separate from other faculties, I would say. They have high marks so they can show off how many people from Mac got into med school with 12s.

Am I wrong? Has anyone else gotten to choose their marks in any of their courses? I've had self-marked assignments and tests, but they're looked over and validated.
Health Sciences students aren't required to do a thesis in the Faculty of Health Sciences so students aren't pigeon-holed into sitting in a lab/crunching clinical data for their theses. The person you're talking about showed great interest in theater and decided to do something he loved for 9 units of his year. The program is immensely supportive in setting up theses that are wholly from students' interests.

Self-evaluation is a huge part of the program's pedagogy. The only courses that are evaluated completely by self-eval are Inquiry I and 4X03 (Peer Collaboration). Why so negative toward Health Sciences students? We're students at McMaster just like you.

Annie, TLulu all say thanks to casey.park for this post.
Old 02-26-2009 at 07:31 PM   #20
micadjems
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I dont think we're hating - I personally think it's unfair to compare the health sci's grades to the rest of ours, and perhaps even to honour these grades.

I know the guy, and I know he's a great guy - im not putting him down or anything. i heard that fact from his brother today. I'm bringing it up because I am extremely into theatre myself - i do mac eng musical: choreography and assistant directing, as well as taking a minor in theatre and film.

I don't see 12s for any of that - even in my theatre courses. (Back to the hard to get 12s in humanities point)
Old 02-26-2009 at 09:19 PM   #21
Moo!io
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph2313 View Post
ok, i think its unfair to say that they ar einflated especially when we dont knwo the whole story. the health sci kids are the ones with the highest admissions coming into any program which means that they are SMART, which also means they are dedicated and have good work ethic which could translate into a 12 average at MAC. if most of them follow that model then obviously most of them would be on provost's and presidents awards
High marks don't necessarily need to translate into good work ethic. I've known people in high school who put in minimal effort yet still do way better than those who work their butts off all the time.

And if you were allowed to pick your own grades, wouldn't you be giving yourself 12s just because you could? It's actually been proven that everyone does think of themselves as the best, regardless of whether or not it's true.

Last edited by Moo!io : 02-26-2009 at 09:28 PM.
Old 02-26-2009 at 09:38 PM   #22
myoozik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo!io View Post
Ah, but high marks don't necessarily translate into good work ethic. I've known people in high school who put in minimal effort yet still do way better than those who work their butts off all the time.

And if you were allowed to pick your own grades, wouldn't you be giving yourself 12s just because you could? It's basic human nature that everyone thinks of themselves as the best.

I do have to say though that people wouldn't be as skeptical if they knew there was some sort of approval process self-evaluations had to go through before marks get published.

That's exactly the point.

This isn't even comparable to the unfounded stereotype that Humanities is the "easiest" faculty.

I commend these students for having excellent GPA's, but the fact of the matter is that having a large majority of Provost's Honours List recipients be in Health Sciences shows a clear imbalance in how some of the marks are distributed in faculties.

[COLOR]
Quote:
ok, i think its unfair to say that they ar einflated especially when we dont knwo the whole story. the health sci kids are the ones with the highest admissions coming into any program which means that they are SMART, which also means they are dedicated and have good work ethic which could translate into a 12 average at MAC. if most of them follow that model then obviously most of them would be on provost's and presidents awards[/color]
The Arts & Science program requires a similarly high average coming out of high school (at this point the Arts Sci cut off is 88% and Health Sci is 90%), and I imagine that Arts & Science students (or in any other program) are just as hard working as those in Health Science, so please do not discount the efforts of students in other faculties. A majority of students at MAC (who had the same marks coming out of high school as Health Sci's) work just as hard but seem to have a clear disadvantage. We are simply questioning a system in which students are supposed to be on equal ground and therefore should have the same opportunity to receive these 'prestigious awards', but a gap exists,

It's all subjective so it's difficult to say, but it's hard to ignore an obvious lack of parity.
Old 02-26-2009 at 10:47 PM   #23
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As was stated by someone earlier in this discussion, a large proportion of President's Award (95%+ out of high school) recipients are health science students. I think it is a stretch to say that all of these students were favoured in high school as well. It is also a stretch to say that health science students are favoured in courses like chemistry, physics and orgo, which are run by a totally different faculty. Many health scis also receive very high marks in these courses.
Maybe health science students actually work hard to achieve high grades...

On another note, one thing which is being taken for granted in this discussion is that all health science students have a 3.9+ GPA. This would be the case if we were all handed out 12's for directing musicals and such, but this is simply not true.
Old 02-26-2009 at 10:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo!io View Post
It's actually been proven that everyone does think of themselves as the best, regardless of whether or not it's true.
Really? I didn't know that, that's a very interesting fact. Since it has been proven, would you mind providing a citation? I don't mean to patronize, please don't take it that way, it's just that I have friends who did not receive a 12 in Inquiry 1 - a course based on self-evaluation - which suggests that some health science students acknowledge personal areas of growth.
Old 02-26-2009 at 11:15 PM   #25
FireDragoonX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody View Post
As was stated by someone earlier in this discussion, a large proportion of President's Award (95%+ out of high school) recipients are health science students. I think it is a stretch to say that all of these students were favoured in high school as well. It is also a stretch to say that health science students are favoured in courses like chemistry, physics and orgo, which are run by a totally different faculty. Many health scis also receive very high marks in these courses.
Maybe health science students actually work hard to achieve high grades...
Since first year health sci is a joke, they have more time to invest in studying courses like chemistry in first year.
Many health sci take orgo in the summer when they have more time to study.

Quote:
On another note, one thing which is being taken for granted in this discussion is that all health science students have a 3.9+ GPA. This would be the case if we were all handed out 12's for directing musicals and such, but this is simply not true.
I'm not saying all health sci's have 12's, but their marks are inflated.

What are the class averages for health sci classes? eg. midterm averages
(generally they are 65%-75%)

I'm pretty certain that the averages are 75-85 for health sci courses, amirite?
Old 02-26-2009 at 11:34 PM   #26
Woody
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In almost two years of being in the program I have never seen a class average for a health science class. Where did you get those numbers?

Assuming they are somehow correct, and the class averages are 75-85, the majority of health science students would not be achieving 12's.
Old 02-26-2009 at 11:42 PM   #27
FireDragoonX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody View Post
In almost two years of being in the program I have never seen a class average for a health science class. Where did you get those numbers?

Assuming they are somehow correct, and the class averages are 75-85, the majority of health science students would not be achieving 12's.
You don't get averages, like for midterms?
I estimated those averages.

But generally, 65-75 is the average for midterms in all non-health science courses.

I am asking if you know the averages for midterms in health sci classes?
If you've never seen a class average in 2 years, I don't know what that means. Is everyone is getting good enough grades to not care about how well they're doing compared to the rest of the class?
Old 02-27-2009 at 09:39 PM   #28
Nosferatu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDragoonX View Post
What are the class averages for health sci classes? eg. midterm averages
(generally they are 65%-75%)

I'm pretty certain that the averages are 75-85 for health sci courses, amirite?
Let's take Chemistry (a general course), for example. General average: 65%-75%. HealthSci average for that course: 75%-85%. It's not only HealthSci courses where HealthSci students as a group have higher averages! So why do you think that an average of 75%-85% would be out of the ordinary for a HealthSci-specific course?

Last edited by Nosferatu : 02-27-2009 at 09:41 PM.
Old 02-27-2009 at 10:08 PM   #29
myoozik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosferatu View Post
Let's take Chemistry (a general course), for example. General average: 65%-75%. HealthSci average for that course: 75%-85%. It's not only HealthSci courses where HealthSci students as a group have higher averages! So why do you think that an average of 75%-85% would be out of the ordinary for a HealthSci-specific course?
There was a comment before that mentioned that perhaps Health Scis have the luxury of extra time to focus on these more difficult prerequisites due to an easier Health Sci-specific course load. A person receiving ~80% in two different courses does not assert that the two courses are similar, so stating that "an average of 75%-85% would" not "be out of the ordinary for HealthSci-specific course" is difficult to compare and back up.
Old 02-27-2009 at 11:29 PM   #30
Chad
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At first I thought this article was about the 28th Annual Awards Assembly where they have a ceremony for those who got on the Deans Honour List and other awards or scholarships. As a scholarship recipient I was invited and it took place on February 27th (Friday). This Daily News article was written on the 25th... so it was before the usual awards ceremony, and mentioned the "President's Awards and Provost's Honour Roll" which I have never heard of.

The President's Award, according to the article, is for students coming from highschool into McMaster with high grade averages.

As for the Provost's Honour Roll, I hadn't heard of it before. According to the McMaster website "Each year outstanding students with a 12.0 average on at least 30 units (usually their Sessional Average) are named to the Provost's Honour Roll. " Interesting! And wow, a 12 average!? That's quite outstanding.

I agree it would have been nice to see a bigger mix of recipients in the article... BOTH were from Health Sci which makes it seem unbalanced. Where they unable to get a quote from someone not in health sci? The article says students from all faculties were there.

If anyone else has more info I'd sure like to know



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