The police representative states "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”.

It is undeniable that in our society: dressing like sluts results in drawing attention from others

No where does it mention putting blame on the victim rather than the assailant. Here is the exact same sentence but replacing a few words.

The police representative states "children should avoid drawing attention from pedophiles in order not to be victimized”.

The police representative states "<group of people> should avoid <drawing attention from potential criminals> in order not to be victimized”.

In no case is the victim being blamed, it's about crime prevention. I will spare an analogy since the OP apparently doesn't understand them.

I believe rape is taken seriously enough. You get a shit load of years in prison for it already and people will never respect a rapist again (take a poll if you don't agree). According to this source (rape stats thing) "The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States wereraped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)"
So a whopping 0.072% of people are raped every year. It is a horrible thing for someone to go through, however when there are billions of starving and poor people without rights around the world I have very little sympathy for Canadian women who's apparently largest problem is the very very very off chance that they might get raped. Why can't North American feminists accept that they have it soooooo ****ing good?

To the OP: I'd like you have a discussion with a malnourished impoverished child about the struggles you guys face in your respective lives.
"I want to dress slutty but society won't sympathize with me as much if I am one of 72 out of 100000 people who get raped." says Amy
"I can't go to school, I live off a grain of rice a day, and I have small pox" says the child
"Wow maybe I should appreciate the fact that I have the equal opportunity to go to University let alone public school, I have an excessive amount of basic needs available to me, and I have equal rights"

Look what she's wearing. It's purple.

I like seeing my hot chicks in skimpy clothing. Hope that never changes. <3

1) I don’t call a thought misogynistic when it disagrees with mine. You’ll notice that a lot of people have disagreed with me in this thread, and I haven’t used that word. I call a thought misogynistic when it’s misogynistic.
2) Whoever bet money on me not thinking men can be raped: you would be losing that money. If anyone was reading the links I posted, you’d know that one of them talked about prison rape being part of rape culture.
3) I don’t think it’s ridiculous to want a criminal to be put in jail so they don’t commit further crimes. This doesn’t mean we don’t need reform in the prison systems.
4) I support feminism and women’s studies (because we still haven't achieved equality, and this is true regardless of the fact that there are other problems in the world ie. poverty and malnourishment). Dismissing something because it’s too feminist or “too women’s studies” isn’t helpful. Here are some frequently-asked feminism related questions, because I’d really rather not argue through the basics of feminism: http://finallyfeminism101.wo rdpres...s/faq-roundup/
5) I agree with the whole off-topic point. I’m pretty sure I’m never going to agree with some of the people in this thread, and the same arguments are kind of going around in circles.

I hope that people who want to stand up against slut-shaming and victim blaming will consider coming out to the walk. The point of this thread was to get the word out.

Originally Posted by PHLN

Care to elaborate on this? I could point you to studies that theorize why coerce sex occurs but I don't think it would matter much. Plus, I am not interested in that. I'm more interested in a propose solution if a clear and distinct reason(s) was found.

Lets look a simplified case that everyone can relate to: Hunger.

We know why we are hungry. How would you propose a solution to it? Would you make sure everyone is fed so that they no longer have to participate in illegal activities in order to feed themselves?

What would you do now that you know the reason for the problem?

Go away, NowHere.

http://www.rape.co.za/index.php?opti... es&Itemid=137

http://www.rape.co.za/index2.php?opt...pdf=1&id= 875


xD its the same article; but sometimes the first link just doesn't work -_-'


and this article too
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jha...925/myths.html

"Myth: Rapists are strangers. If people avoid strangers, then they will not be raped.

FACT In 60% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991, the rapist was known to the victim. 7% of the assailants were family members of the victim. These statistics reflect only reported rapes. Assaults by assailants the victim knows are often not reported so the statistics do not reflect the actual numbers of acquaintance rapes."

"Myth: Rape only happens to young attractive women.

Fact: Rape can and does strike anyone at anytime. Age, social class, ethnic group and has no bearing on the person a rapist chooses to attack. Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and / or acts does not influence the rapists choice of victims. His decision to rape is based on how easily he perceives his target can be intimidated. Rapists are looking for available and vulnerable targets. Statistics were obtained from various sources including the study Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center, The Federal Bureau of Investigations and the National Crime Survey."

"Myth: Men can't be raped.

Fact: There were approximately 20,000 sexual assaults of males ages 12 and over in the United States in 1991. (Bureau of Justice statistics, 1992)"

"Myth: Women incite men to rape.

Fact: Research has found that the vast majority of rapes are planned. Rape is the responsibility of the rapist alone. Women, children and men of every age, physical type and demeanor are raped. Opportunity is the most important factor determining when a given rapist will rape."

Originally Posted by Revolution1

Yes, women should certainly take care of themselves and take precautions to be safe when they are outside. However, even when a woman is so drunk that she has no idea who she is with, is sleeping with a new person each night, or is going about prostituting herself, she is not asking to be raped. Under NO circumstances would her rape be justified. I think this is what is meant by the statement that the victim of a rape is never at fault. It may not be wise of you to walk alone at night in an at-risk neighbourhood, but it is certainly never your fault if you are attacked. You seem to be implying that it is okay for men to be unable to control their sexual urges and that their actions are justified if the woman forgot to take precautions. I hate that thinking so much, and I think it is essential to start teaching men that under NO circumstances, unless she gives her clear consent, is a woman asking to be assaulted. Even if she is drunk out of her mind and parading the streets naked, you DO NOT assault her.


Entropy and the like seem to be promoting the very dangerous idea that rape is solely a crime of passion, and only provocatively dressed, “hot” women are raped. Rape is often a crime of hatred. In that case, it is meant to humiliate and hurt a vulnerable individual, while making the assailant feel powerful and in control. Babies, children, men, and the elderly are frequently raped and sexually assaulted. Rape is rampant in Middle Eastern countries where women are far from provocatively dressed, as they are covered from head to toe.


All I am trying to say is that everyone should certainly take precautions to keep themselves safe. We do not live in a perfect world. However, I think it is high time we started changing our thinking, since there is a scarily large amount of people (as witnessed on this forum) that believe that rape is justified in some cases.

This this this.

The attitude towards rape victims that I've seen in this thread is so disturbing. Alcohol and physical attractiveness do not cause rape unto people. Rapists cause rape unto people. And rape has nothing to do with sex or reproduction. Rape is an act of violence and hatred, simple as that. It's the ultimate way of telling someone they're worthless. Sure, it involves the same body parts as sex, but it's like a hug versus a slap.

And there's nothing that justifies rape, and there's nothing you can do to "put yourself into a position" to get raped. Take a couple roofies yourself and pass out.... run naked through a sketchy neighbourhood at night... there's NOTHING you could possibly do that makes it okay to be raped. Yes, take precautions to stay safe, cause this is not a perfect world. But this whole attitude of "you got raped? too bad, should've taken the precautions!" just makes it so much harder for rape victims to get the support they need to recover.

Originally Posted by marcie

"you got raped? too bad, should've taken the precautions!"

No one is actually arguing for this.

Originally Posted by marcie

Yes, take precautions to stay safe, cause this is not a perfect world.

^...is what MI-users are saying. Even the police officers meant this. They just didn't say it the right way. I guess that's what the point of the walk is.

(That's ignoring the "trolls" on MI, of course.)

Originally Posted by justinsftw

(That's ignoring the "trolls" on MI, of course.)

I have been side stepping the trolling comments for good reason.

Someone pointed out (can't recall which thread at the moment) that MI tended to stay on topic and arouse more engaging discussing when so called "real" trolls was around.

Knowing how difficult this topic could be, I took the opportunity to test out the statement to see if it has any merit.

Seems to work.

Originally Posted by julianface

The police representative states "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”.

It is undeniable that in our society: dressing like sluts results in drawing attention from others

No where does it mention putting blame on the victim rather than the assailant. Here is the exact same sentence but replacing a few words.

The police representative states "children should avoid drawing attention from pedophiles in order not to be victimized”.

The police representative states "<group of people> should avoid <drawing attention from potential criminals> in order not to be victimized”.

In no case is the victim being blamed, it's about crime prevention. I will spare an analogy since the OP apparently doesn't understand them.

I believe rape is taken seriously enough. You get a shit load of years in prison for it already and people will never respect a rapist again (take a poll if you don't agree). According to this source (rape stats thing) "The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States wereraped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)"
So a whopping 0.072% of people are raped every year. It is a horrible thing for someone to go through, however when there are billions of starving and poor people without rights around the world I have very little sympathy for Canadian women who's apparently largest problem is the very very very off chance that they might get raped. Why can't North American feminists accept that they have it soooooo ****ing good?

To the OP: I'd like you have a discussion with a malnourished impoverished child about the struggles you guys face in your respective lives.
"I want to dress slutty but society won't sympathize with me as much if I am one of 72 out of 100000 people who get raped." says Amy
"I can't go to school, I live off a grain of rice a day, and I have small pox" says the child
"Wow maybe I should appreciate the fact that I have the equal opportunity to go to University let alone public school, I have an excessive amount of basic needs available to me, and I have equal rights"

Just because someone else is worse off than us doesn't mean that we can't be upset about the reality we face. By this logic, you can also say "starving children should stop complaining: they have it easy compared to someone who is starving, and also diseased and orphaned." At any rate, when did Amy say "f*** the fact that I have equal opportunity and basic needs that are available to me, the fact that women can't dress provocatively makes all of that useless!"

In regards to the first bolded statement, I'd be extremely interested to see you elaborate on that. I don't mean that in a "I dare you to respond" way, I'm genuinely interested in the situations to which you feel this applies. Hypothetically, let's say I'm a sexual assault victim, and therefore am well aware of the emotional and physical trauma that comes with such a thing. Naturally, a large concern for me is reliving the same thing that has already happened to me. I shouldn't be worried about the risk of this, then, since it's so small? And other women shouldn't be worried about being put in the situation I was in? But hey, I'm not impoverished or starving, so I'm doing alright, I guess?

Since we've touched on comparison using the topic of theft.

Hey guys. My neighbours in residence are rather trusting and often leave their door unlocked while we're all sitting around in the common room. One of them has a daaaamn sexy computer that he's shown off quite a few times. So I'm thinking, I'm going to go in one day while they're in the common room and take it, because the little ***** is just asking for it. Shame on him for being trusting enough to leave his door unlocked for a while and for showing off his sexy, sexy laptop without considering that it may tempt people. It's not my fault he's made me want it so badly. It's his responsibility to be careful with his shit!

Seriously, guys? I can't believe what I'm reading here.

Originally Posted by PHLN

Reproduction is not a logical sense to rape?

I will introduce to you then the sociobiological theories in rape. Human, as much as you want to debate, is defined and classified as animal on this planet.

Originally Posted by Kal El

Look. let's get a few things cleared up here; humans are animals, and as animals, some of us are a slave to our whim just as much as a lion or the wonderful, majestic puma might be. The wonderful, wonderful puma. They get in season, and they mate, and I think it's foolhardy to exclude humans from this party; of course a portion of society are going to just do what they want - it doesn't make it right, but they are, nonetheless, going to do it anyway - and that's whether you know the person or not.

Are you seriously using "humans are animals" as an argument for it not being completely the rapist's fault and/or allocating some amount of responsibility onto the victim? Why do you think it's okay to apply this to rape, but not to, say, a situation where I think I'm going to off my sister so that a greater portion of my family's resources can be allocated to me? If "humans are animals" should apply, my parents should just watch and let the stronger of the two of us come out alive, 'cause "survival of the fittest," yeah? Some animals do that, so HEY, why not humans?

Also, PHLN, are you really trolling, or was that just an excuse for your very ****ed up views?

For Amy to ignore my argument tells me that I had a good valid point

Originally Posted by julianface

For Amy to ignore my argument tells me that I had a good valid point

Nah, she's responded to a lot of well-spoken arguments. Keep telling yourself that, though. By that logic, you didn't actually respond to my argument against yours, so I guess you think mine is valid too.

Odd.

Originally Posted by Amaryll

Since we've touched on comparison using the topic of theft.

Hey guys. My neighbours in residence are rather trusting and often leave their door unlocked while we're all sitting around in the common room. One of them has a daaaamn sexy computer that he's shown off quite a few times. So I'm thinking, I'm going to go in one day while they're in the common room and take it, because the little ***** is just asking for it. Same on him for being trusting enough to leave his door unlocked for a while and for showing off his sexy, sexy laptop without considering that it may tempt people. It's not my fault he's made me want it so badly. It's his responsibility to be careful with his shit!

Seriously, guys? I can't believe what I'm reading here.

...

Are you seriously using "humans are animals" as an argument for it not being completely the rapist's fault and/or allocating some amount of responsibility onto the victim? Why do you think it's okay to apply this to rape, but not to, say, a situation where I think I'm going to off my sister so that a greater portion of my family's resources can be allocated to me? If "humans are animals" should apply, my parents should just watch and let the stronger of the two of us come out alive, 'cause "survival of the fittest," yeah? Some animals do that, so HEY, why not humans?

Also, PHLN, are you really trolling, or was that just an excuse for your very ****ed up views?

While I agree that rape is a natural response to sexual behaviour, its not an excusable action -- as we (those who we deem moral) are thinking, planning, and civilized people. There are a lot of basal instincts we could give in to, and those who don't are the ones who should be free to live in society unpunished/unimprisoned.

Originally Posted by julianface

For Amy to ignore my argument tells me that I had a good valid point

Or, y'know, she may actually go to class?


To add on to my last post and clarify on my views--I believe that people, both men and women, should be careful. There are ****ed up people in the world, and it would be foolish to just trust everyone. However, when rape happens, it is never, ever the fault of the victim. Yes, I'm stating this as an absolute.

However, the law can often discriminate against rape victims in a manner which would not be tolerated by victims of any other crime. In the following example, a holdup victim is asked questions similar in form to those usually asked a victim of rape.

“Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of 16th and Locust?”
“Yes.”
“Did you struggle with the robber?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“He was armed.”
“Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than to resist?”
“Yes.”
“Did you scream? Cry out?”
“No. I was afraid.”
“I see. Have you ever been held up before?”
“No.”
“Have you ever given money away?”
“Yes, of course–”
“And did you do so willingly?”
“What are you getting at?”
“Well, let’s put it like this, Mr. Smith. You’ve given away money in the past–in fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren’t contriving to have your money taken from you by force?”
“Listen, if I wanted–”
“Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith?”
“About 11 p.m.”
“You were out on the streets at 11 p.m.? Doing what?”
“Just walking.”
“Just walking? You know it’s dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren’t you aware that you could have been held up?”
“I hadn’t thought about it.”
“What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith?”
“Let’s see. A suit. Yes, a suit.”
“An expensive suit?”
“Well–yes.”
“In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically advertised the fact that you might be a good target for some easy money, isn’t that so? I mean, if we didn’t know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think you were asking for this to happen, mightn’t we?”
“Look, can’t we talkin about the past history of the guy who did this to me?”
“I’m afraid not, Mr. Smith. I don’t think you would want to violate his rights, now, would you?”