Originally Posted by Mahratta

First, I mean researchers, profs, etc. In those cases, the ratio of male to female is highly skewed. In terms of enrolment in university (which is what you are talking about), it is far more even, but most female math students go on to some socially mandated profession for females, like teaching math in highschool, or working in finance, or whatever.

I'm not saying that women are not as good at mathematics outright. People tend to be good at some thing X when the way they think overlaps significantly enough with the way that the powerful classes within the establishment X think. This depends on a number of factors, all of which can be summed up as "upbringing". Of course, gender is in many cases a determining factor in upbringing -- parents, family, society think that a girl ought to be brought up differently than a boy in many cases. That said, there are hundreds/thousands/many other factors, which are significant to varying degrees depending on the situation.

With mathematics, it seems significant to note that it has historically been and continues to be male-dominated, hence gender seems more significant a factor than, say, race (although race is still somewhat important). Another important factor is income, but the debate isn't about that.

There's nothing about "favouring" explicitly -- we should avoid falling into the trap of "blaming" some faction or the other. I think that, at least explicitly, most academic communities are fairly egalitarian. In fact, the so-called "encouragement" given to female students of math may be worse than leaving the situation alone. It merely reinforms society that women have not done mathematics historically, and that it takes a special sort of woman to be a mathematician, which is untrue.

No I know that's not what you said, and for the most part I agree with what you're arguing... but you did speak of an institution of descrimination and " it is only the way in which mathematics is put and presented, both publicly and academically, that causes trouble."... I was asking what specifically about the way it is presented that causes trouble. Are you speaking about learning styles? Presentaton in the media as in a cultural perception? I was just unclear about what that meant...

About favouring, i meant that inrespect the the above paragraph.

And I don't know about encouragement being a bad thing (i'm not sure where I stand on the idea of affermative action), I don't think that encouragement in the form of say a female role model for younger girl is a bad thing, and I think it would get more girls into fields not traditionally entered by women. The same for other groups that humans have decided exist...

All that said, I'm not arguing that society is to blame, but there's no sense in denying that a disparity does exist, and social/cultural norms play a role in fostering it. To what extent is debatable.

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

No I know that's not what you said, and for the most part I agree with what you're arguing... but you did speak of an institution of descrimination and " it is only the way in which mathematics is put and presented, both publicly and academically, that causes trouble."... I was asking what specifically about the way it is presented that causes trouble. Are you speaking about learning styles? Presentaton in the media as in a cultural perception? I was just unclear about what that meant...

Presentation includes the media, although math isn't really a popular topic. That's why I think "gender based affirmative action" isn't particularly helpful, and is generally unhelpful. If the little public exposure that women in math have talks about how there are lower standards for women than men, the perpetuation of the stereotype seems to be an obvious consequence.

And I don't know about encouragement being a bad thing (i'm not sure where I stand on the idea of affermative action), I don't think that encouragement in the form of say a female role model for younger girl is a bad thing, and I think it would get more girls into fields not traditionally entered by women. The same for other groups that humans have decided exist...

Affirmative action based on poverty isn't comparable to that for female students, in general. Affirmative action is supposed to "iron out" the backgrounds of people in whatever program (whether or not it works is beyond the scope of this debate -- when based solely on race, for example, I don't think it works for the same reason it doesn't work when based solely on gender). Grants to women, at least in math, do not do this; female applicants are, in general, in no greater need of assistance than male ones. On the other hand, under-represented racial groups are, in many cases, as either they come from poorer backgrounds or have not attended schools with as much funding in them (this is a bigger problem in the US than Canada).

When we lower requirements for women in math, all we do is perpetuate the stereotype; it puts out the impression that women need the lower requirements, and from that it can easily be concluded (rightly or not) that women are simply not good at mathematics.

Well go figure... now my previous post shows up

I'm not specifically talking about affermative action... especially in the situation of gender inequality. But I don't know if programs that a university or government might set up to expose females to math (or any group to a field not typically pursured by them... males and nursing for example), is really the same.

Having an identifiable role model enables a sense of belonging rather than alienation when you precieve that everyone else in the program belongs except yourself. A previous article that I posted a link to found similar results in their research

Originally Posted by Shanel

You know how smug and condescending this sounds? You're right, my 6 year-old self totally should have totally had the foresight and knowledge to refute him. Why, I should have summoned the spirit of Ayn Rand herself to protect me from getting slapped for backtalk.

Do you believe that you are a self-made man? If people told you that you couldn't be an engineer, what allowed you to ignore them?

A few things. One, there is nothing in this statement that comes off as smug, seeing as im not boasting my own accomplishments in any way. Two, a person does not choose the profession that they want at age 6, if they did and i listened to my parents, id be prime minister or an astronaut. Three, yes I am a self made man, and if people told me I couldnt be an engineer, Id say screw them and do it anyways! I control what direction I want my life to go in, and in saying that, i dont give a rats ass who tries telling me otherwise because I do what makes me happy. Im not going to go and question your parents character about supposedly making you stay away from what you wanted. But if my parents had told me what profession they expected me to go into, it wouldnt have had any influence on my choice, because they dont live my life.
Finally, I have no idea who Ayn Rand is, so that comment really doesnt hold any meaning for me...

Originally Posted by Chris23

Finally, I have no idea who Ayn Rand is, so that comment really doesnt hold any meaning for me...

Never read Atlas Shrugged?

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

Never read Atlas Shrugged?

Nope and its not really on my to do list to be quite honest!

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

See this is why personal experience is irrelevant. What does it matter if you never see it? You've never seen it, but lots of studies show that it undeniably exists. Science doesn't work on personal expereince, it works on actual evidence...

And no infact it is NOT a right for an employer to hire "who they want" if it's based on age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status etc. etc... Im 100% it happens all the time, but that is most certainly NOT their right (in fact it's illegal...)

Have you ever thought that maybe the studies can be biased? That people who conduct them are doing it for something else, eg money and to show personal views. And how personal experiences cant be counted in, unless we all see it happening everywhere, it's not that common.

That might be true. It is illegal. But do you think it's just for the government to dictate the employment laws for business holders? Don't you think they know best who to hire and who to pay their money to? Laws are made to keep the majority satisfied (employees in this case), doesn't mean they are correct.

Originally Posted by Twinkle

Have you ever thought that maybe the studies can be biased? That people who conduct them are doing it for something else, eg money and to show personal views. And how personal experiences cant be counted in, unless we all see it happening everywhere, it's not that common.

That might be true. It is illegal. But do you think it's just for the government to dictate the employment laws for business holders? Don't you think they know best who to hire and who to pay their money to? Laws are made to keep the majority satisfied (employees in this case), doesn't mean they are correct.

You're first point... yeah, it's all a conspiracy. Because if Twinkle didn't see it... it never happened!

Your second point... Yes, it is more than "just" it makes complete sense. Would you not agree that employers should only ever be hiring those that are most qualified? You can't honestly believe otherwise... Lets say for example two people are equally qualified. One is white the other is black, would be right for the employer to hire the white one just because he's white?

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

You're first point... yeah, it's all a conspiracy. Because if Twinkle didn't see it... it never happened!

Your second point... Yes, it is more than "just" it makes complete sense. Would you not agree that employers should only ever be hiring those that are most qualified? You can't honestly believe otherwise... Lets say for example two people are equally qualified. One is white the other is black, would be right for the employer to hire the white one just because he's white?

I can also say the same thing about you. You think there's problem based on newspapers, while in real world there's barely any problem of that sort left (besides the employment question of course). You often forget one thing, statistics tells you facts, not the reasons. And like that other guy said, there's an infinite amount of reasons why there are more men in engineering than women.

Yes they should, but don't forget, its their company, they made it, they make decisions on who to hire and how to run their own company. You sound like you think like women do the best work, so only they should be hired and since they are not, its sexism.

And yes, as badly as it sounds, they can do that. In other words, if you want make your own rules, make your own company and hire whoever you want. Yes, it's racism and sexism, but it's real life we are living here, it sucks for everybody.

Originally Posted by Chris23

A few things. One, there is nothing in this statement that comes off as smug, seeing as im not boasting my own accomplishments in any way. Two, a person does not choose the profession that they want at age 6, if they did and i listened to my parents, id be prime minister or an astronaut. Three, yes I am a self made man, and if people told me I couldnt be an engineer, Id say screw them and do it anyways! I control what direction I want my life to go in, and in saying that, i dont give a rats ass who tries telling me otherwise because I do what makes me happy. Im not going to go and question your parents character about supposedly making you stay away from what you wanted. But if my parents had told me what profession they expected me to go into, it wouldnt have had any influence on my choice, because they dont live my life.
Finally, I have no idea who Ayn Rand is, so that comment really doesnt hold any meaning for me...

Until you've been in that situation you can't say what you would or would not have done. Everyone would like to think they'd be total badasses who tells the haters to go **** themselves, but it doesn't always works that way.

Originally Posted by Twinkle

I can also say the same thing about you. You think there's problem based on newspapers, while in real world there's barely any problem of that sort left (besides the employment question of course). You often forget one thing, statistics tells you facts, not the reasons. And like that other guy said, there's an infinite amount of reasons why there are more men in engineering than women.

Yes they should, but don't forget, its their company, they made it, they make decisions on who to hire and how to run their own company. You sound like you think like women do the best work, so only they should be hired and since they are not, its sexism.

And yes, as badly as it sounds, they can do that. In other words, if want you make your own rules, make your own company and hire whoever you want. Yes, it's racism and sexism, but it's real life we are living here, it sucks for everybody.

Oh yeah, you're completely right... there's absolutley no problem. And the studies which accumlate massive amounts of data from the "real world" are trumped by your personal experiences in which you meet a few people. Not just newspapers btw... academic articles usually carry a lot more weight... but we must also be aware that they're apartof an elaborate conspiracy... so meh

I actually didn't say that I think women do the best work... I said an employer should hire anyone based on nothing else except their ability to perform the job, whether they be a man or a woman it makes no difference.

And this might be censored but, Twinkle... you are an idiot if you think that an employer should be allowed to base their hiring decision on the colour of the applicants skin...

Originally Posted by Shanel

Until you've been in that situation you can't say what you would or would not have done. Everyone would like to think they'd be total badasses who tells the haters to go **** themselves, but it doesn't always works that way.

It does if you have a backbone. All im hearing is you allowed others to dictate how you were going to live your life and for that i am sorry. My parents raised me to be independant and to make choices for myself. No one is to blame for how someones life turns out except for themself. It is your life to live, its just a question of if you live it, or you let others live it for you.

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

And this might be censored but, Twinkle... you are an idiot if you think that an employer should be allowed to base their hiring decision on the colour of the applicants skin...

He didn't say they are allowed, he said if that's what they want then its up to them...he also added this: Yes, it's racism and sexism, but it's real life we are living here, it sucks for everybody.
This shows that he understands and know that such actions are racism and sexism.
I didn't want to be a part of this thread at all, but ohh well :/