Originally Posted by husayn12

Honestly, if I were a patient I would want the doctor who took the bird courses ... cause that shows s/he had the common sense to maximize his or her chances. I wouldn't mind the so-called 'nerd' who was able to get in even with taking hard courses, but who wouldn't want a doctor who has common sense. Our education system currently is geared to people who just memorize information and take study hard .... I love it when people who are just as qualified but smarter in other areas get in ...

I think there is a problem with the system if you HAVE to take bird courses to "maximize your chances". You might see it as common sense, others see it as laziness and not living up to your full potential or whatever. You don't have to be a nerd to work hard. I think it depends on the individual person.

Also, there is a difference between taking bird courses you're truly interested in, and bird courses that you have no interest in but are solely meant to increase your GPA.

1. Take courses you want
2. Get 12s
3. ???
4. Profit!

Originally Posted by nerual

1) I don't want to go to med school. I take courses I enjoy.
2) There is a huge difference. The interview/acceptance process is not perfect.
3) I think you're saying this just to be argumentative. Without knowing anything more about the person, you can't actually make an informed decision as to which doctor you'd prefer. All else being equal, I'd prefer the hardworking doctor. ymmv.
4) All it means is that the system isn't perfect. Taking bird courses doesn't guarantee you'll get into med school.


I love my program. The OP asked why people frown upon premed kids taking easy courses. That is the logic. Whether or not you like or agree with it, that is what many people think.
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I think one of the perks of being really ambitious and driven towards a certain career(not just because your parents want you to), is you really don't care what the haters say, you have a goal and the jealous ones (least of all a disproving chemical biologist) can't stop you. Anyone who isn't this selfish needs to seriously consider why they want to be a doctor.

Originally Posted by SydVicious

I think one of the perks of being really ambitious and driven towards a certain career(not just because your parents want you to), is you really don't care what the haters say, you have a goal and the jealous ones (least of all a disproving chemical biologist) can't stop you. Anyone who isn't this selfish needs to seriously consider why they want to be a doctor.

I think there's a difference between being confident and self-assured (what you seem to describe) and being selfish.

Selfish doctors are bad doctors. Trust on that one.

Originally Posted by arathbon

I think there's a difference between being confident and self-assured (what you seem to describe) and being selfish.

Selfish doctors are bad doctors. Trust on that one.

thanks for correcting me, thats sort of what i meant.

Originally Posted by husayn12

Honestly, if I were a patient I would want the doctor who took the bird courses ... cause that shows s/he had the common sense to maximize his or her chances.

You say 'maximizes his or her chances', I say 'takes the easy way out'. I don't think I'd look for a doctor based on that particular characteristic.

Originally Posted by nerual

I think there is a problem with the system if you HAVE to take bird courses to "maximize your chances". You might see it as common sense, others see it as laziness and not living up to your full potential or whatever. You don't have to be a nerd to work hard. I think it depends on the individual person.

I think the real problem is that too many people want to go into medicine, and too many of those do so for social reasons (money, prestige, family, etc.). When they realize that they're not "smart" enough to get in, they find alternate ways (i.e. bird courses).

Originally Posted by Mahratta

I don't understand that either.

Also, I don't understand why some people feel the need to judge those that judge said premeds by posting online rants.

is this supposed to be witty or something?

Feel free to point out the irony of my post or my short-sightedness. that's fair, i will take the criticism, but I ask you to be respectful. I dont appreciate belittling/condescending passive-aggressive retorts.

It's not like that adds much to this discussion either.

Originally Posted by jjae0958

Feel free to point out the irony of my post or my short-sightedness. that's fair, i will take the criticism, but I ask you to be respectful. .

You're complaining about people "judging", and then proceeding to judge them. As for respect: you deserve the same amount of respect that you're giving those that you disagree with.

EDIT: The point on whether this adds to the discussion is taken, I won't respond on this note (after this, obviously), although if I may, your response didn't exactly 'add to the discussion' either.

Originally Posted by lux

Don't say the 'M' word to anyone, they'll give you cut eye if you mention it too much =]. Plus you're more likely to achieve your goal when you don't tell it to too many people, because if you announce it to the world, you're left with an expectation to get in, and if you don't you'll perceive yourself as a failure. I'm a strong believer of knowing what you're getting yourself into before actually doing it, so take the time to figure our what you enjoy doing, studying, etc.

So my advice, follow your passions and discover what you REALLY want, you know do some real soul searching, but keep your mouth sealed about your intentions, throw away the key, and only take it out when you need it.

I see your point, but I dont see why Medical School should be a taboo or anything like that. We all know most science students are aspiring doctors (I dont have a source off-hand). It's the big elephant in the room...

I don't see why an open, honest conversation hurts. That said, if that's how you go about things in school, much respect. I see the rationale.

And I agree whole-heartedly with the last tidbit (the overarching theme, the general idea - that is)

Originally Posted by Mahratta

You're complaining about people "judging", and then proceeding to judge them. As for respect: you deserve the same amount of respect that you're giving those that you disagree with.

EDIT: The point on whether this adds to the discussion is taken, I won't respond on this note (after this, obviously), although if I may, your response didn't exactly 'add to the discussion' either.

Hmm have I judged? Honest question.

I simply posed the question: why those people question premeds' decision making with regards to course selection.

If I came across that way, my apologies.

Originally Posted by jjae0958

I see your point, but I dont see why Medical School should be a taboo or anything like that. We all know most science students are aspiring doctors (I dont have a source off-hand). It's the big elephant in the room...

I don't see why an open, honest conversation hurts. That said, if that's how you go about things in school, much respect. I see the rationale.

And I agree whole-heartedly with the last tidbit

I have a source. First year Research Methods and Data Analysis class Prof asks "Who wants to be a Doctor" and ~80% of the class puts up their hand. Only a year later and I can tell you around 3/4's of those have changed their minds and more are not as sure. For some its that they realized they probably wouldn't make it, but for many others its been because they've been exploring other options and discovering things they like. Many people coming into University have no clue about the multitude of health and science related professions and change their mind after some exposure.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

I think the real problem is that too many people want to go into medicine, and too many of those do so for social reasons (money, prestige, family, etc.). When they realize that they're not "smart" enough to get in, they find alternate ways (i.e. bird courses).

Many people say this. But why does it matter?
Shouldn't we leave this up to the Admission committee to make the call whether an applicant is fit in terms of academics, character, etc.

For the sake of argument, even if those people are motivated to enter medicine for those reasons, who are we to say they cant enter medicine for that reason? especially if they are competent and still are empathetic, etc.
(Im not saying those motives are ideal, just sayin)

Originally Posted by jjae0958

I simply posed the question: why those people question premeds' decision making with regards to course selection.

Well, here's my rationale for doing precisely that.

Consider the options of a non-premed (I don't know about law, so let's say 'non-prelaw' as well). For example, take someone in my own program (as I'm most familiar with the options). If they take enough easy courses to bring up their GPAs, they won't have a shot at getting into graduate school and landing a "good", relatively high-paying job in mathematics. So they've got to distinguish themselves in more difficult courses if they want their undergraduate work to pay more dividends (i.e. get into graduate school). Let's now look at this in terms of social factors. In these terms, if I want to make a (financial) living anywhere close to as cushy as that of a doctor, I've got to do a hell of a lot of hard work in my undergraduate years, and I don't get to take 'Big Questions' or 'Waters' or 'Gemstones' to lighten the load. There is no easy way to a mathematics professorship, or a good physics job, or a cushy chemistry placement. There is an easy way to medical school.

This concern, I think, is shared by many non-premeds. I wouldn't say it's irrational at all to hold it.

Originally Posted by jjae0958

Many people say this. But why does it matter?
Shouldn't we leave this up to the Admission committee to make the call whether an applicant is fit in terms of academics, character, etc.

I never said that such an applicant shouldn't be admitted. I merely suggested a possible situation for a premed that would make them take bird courses.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Well, here's my rationale for doing precisely that.

Consider the options of a non-premed (I don't know about law, so let's say 'non-prelaw' as well). For example, take someone in my own program (as I'm most familiar with the options). If they take enough easy courses to bring up their GPAs, they won't have a shot at getting into graduate school and landing a "good", relatively high-paying job in mathematics. So they've got to distinguish themselves in more difficult courses if they want their undergraduate work to pay more dividends (i.e. get into graduate school). Let's now look at this in terms of social factors. In these terms, if I want to make a (financial) living anywhere close to as cushy as that of a doctor, I've got to do a hell of a lot of hard work in my undergraduate years, and I don't get to take 'Big Questions' or 'Waters' or 'Gemstones' to lighten the load.

This concern, I think, is shared by many non-premeds. I wouldn't say it's irrational at all to hold it.

good points.

but still, why should non-premeds care about premeds' choices? Premeds are doing what they are doing for a reason - out of practical consideration. It's their life. Who are you to say they shouldn't take such and such because their choices are not in line with your values/beliefs?

Do you know what I mean?

Also I think there is a bias again stereotypical pre-meds. They're the ones who everyone knows. They act like a bigshot. They only talk about getting into med school and their grades. They ask at least one question a class to make sure the prof knows their actively involved (and of course these questions are often the ones you roll your eyes at, usually because the student is taking a class they don't have an actual interest in but they're still acing. IMO great questions usually stem out of either difficulty with or being genuinely curious about the material). Most importantly they always ask if something is testable, even if the prof dislikes these questions or has clearly outlined what will or will not be testable.

Read this: http://medschoolmemoir.com/a-guide-t...med-douchebag/

(Also I'm aware that I have some of these traits. However, I like to think I'm working on cutting them down)