Using the Red Herring and the Bandwagon, ey ?

Originally Posted by Icecream

I did not claim that. I claimed that Math professorship is a profession and you cannot compare that with something who just came out of Med School (because there is a ****ING CLERKSHIP.)

Actually that's not true, clerkship is in medical school. Residency is after.

But I think this is what you're missing:

Med school: Very selective, high GPA cut offs, standardized test, interviews, most people end up doctors in the end despite everything during med school and after

PhD: Not sure how selective it is in general, but I'd assume it varies based on the program. However the competition to complete the career path is still more selective as there are many PhD's chasing Post-doctoral fellowship and a very limited supply of faculty positions.

In other words the thing that will stop you from becoming a doctor (not from getting your desired specialty, but from being a doctor at all) is far more likely to be getting into medical school than at any other stage. Meanwhile there are far more barrier points in becoming a professor.

Originally Posted by Icecream

Your opinion is irrational.

Mathematics Professor : Job.

Finishing Medical School : You do not have a job yet.

Yes, you do have to work hard to get a PhD and to get to professorship. I do not know if getting in med school is easy or not. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume it is easy to get into med school.

To practice medicine (i.e getting an MD salary in your pocket), you have to complete clerkship after med school.

And : Getting into Med school may be easy but that does not mean finishing it is. A person can cheat his/her way to get to get a degree in engineering or even a Professional Engineering diploma. But he/she will highly likely be unable to perform any engineering job. In other words, there will be almost no reward in the end.

The end (the infinitely end) justifies the means.

... Your information is clearly messed up.

Clerkship is the 3rd/4th year of medical school. Residency is after medical school.

Pre-clerkship is easy since it's pass/fail and it's pretty difficult to fail. So unless you get sick or act unprofessional, it's very likely that you'll graduate and get matched for residency.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

No, that's ridiculous. I'm equating the MD with the PhD and the subsequent medical paths before practice to the subsequent fellowships, etc. before professorship.

LIAR !

You said this :

In these terms, if I want to make a (financial) living anywhere close to as cushy as that of a doctor, I've got to do a hell of a lot of hard work in my undergraduate years, and I don't get to take 'Big Questions' or 'Waters' or 'Gemstones' to lighten the load. There is no easy way to a mathematics professorship, or a good physics job, or a cushy chemistry placement. There is an easy way to medical school.

Mathematic professorship hD+competition and other factors

Medical school : MD (just a degree)

If you cannot comprehend then let me explain. You assumed that getting through med school automatically gives you the job. Therefore, you compared it with professorship and a physics job.

Originally Posted by arathbon

Actually that's not true, clerkship is in medical school. Residency is after.

But I think this is what you're missing:

Med school: Very selective, high GPA cut offs, standardized test, interviews, most people end up doctors in the end despite everything during med school and after

PhD: Not sure how selective it is in general, but I'd assume it varies based on the program. However the competition to complete the career path is still more selective as there are many PhD's chasing Post-doctoral fellowship and a very limited supply of faculty positions.

In other words the thing that will stop you from becoming a doctor (not from getting your desired specialty, but from being a doctor at all) is far more likely to be getting into medical school than at any other stage. Meanwhile there are far more barrier points in becoming a professor.

In Math (again, not to beat the point to death, but this is the field I know) getting into the PhD is kind of difficult. Not unreasonably so, presumably everyone in a Masters program can get into a PhD, but it's a unique challenge. Some people get 'lucky' and have the right combination of research/references to get in no problem. Others don't have the luxury of things like government grants and the road can be tougher. It's nothing like getting into Med School however, that's a huge obstacle.

The bolded part of your quote sums it up very nicely.

Originally Posted by Icecream

LIAR !

You said this :

.

Yes, and then I said this:

Originally Posted by Mahratta

In any case, whatever that post contained held equally well with 'math PhD' substituted for 'math professor', so your point doesn't even hold.

Please stop wasting everyone's time. I'm not saying that the two are the same, I'm saying that in the context of that post the two can be used interchangeably. It's not hard to see that.

Originally Posted by Lois

... Your information is clearly messed up.

Clerkship is the 3rd/4th year of medical school. Residency is after medical school.

Pre-clerkship is easy since it's pass/fail and it's pretty difficult to fail. So unless you get sick or act unprofessional, it's very likely that you'll graduate and get matched for residency.

Then I meant residency. I thought the terms were different with the USA and Canada.

Originally Posted by Icecream

LIAR !


Medical school : MD (just a degree)

Your ability to process information is astounding.

Let's repeat this.
1. Once a person gets into a Canadian medical school it is highly unlikely that you will not complete the degree unless you get ill or do something unprofessional.
2. Get matched (Match rates for Canadians are very high in the first round) --> Licensing Exam (very high pass rate, if you fail, you get to write it again) --> MD
3. Residency --> Practice.

Whereas a professorship is much more competitive because the market is oversaturated. On the otherhand there's a limited number of physicians so it's very easy to get a job.

Originally Posted by Icecream

Then I meant residency. I thought the terms were different with the USA and Canada.

In the US Residency is divided into an intern year then the rest of residency (I'm not sure of what the technical distinction is). But in both countries Clerkship refers to clinical rotations required to get your MD degree.

In any case, whatever that post contained held equally well with 'math PhD' substituted for 'math professor', so your point doesn't even hold.

Well, next time learn to use the right terms for the right meanings.

I was not assuming you were ignorant of the fact that having a PhD and professorship are not substitutes. Rather, I thought you knew the terms but compared a degree (MD) to a profession (Math professor+ "Physics Job")

So stop using the Red Herring. I know you are dodging the fact that you also said "Physics job", which implies you were comparing a job to a degree. This is heresy.

Originally Posted by Icecream

So stop using the Red Herring. I know you are dodging the fact that you also said "Physics job", which implies you were comparing a job to a degree. This is heresy.

Do I really need to spell everything out explicitly for you, or are you deliberately wasting everyone's time?

To explicate absolutely: Wherever I wrote 'math professor', 'physics job', etc., 'math PhD', 'history PhD', '<insert subject> PhD' fits equally well in the context of that first post.

"Heresy"? Uh, yeah...

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Do I really need to spell everything out explicitly for you, or are you deliberately wasting everyone's time?

To explicate absolutely: Wherever I wrote 'math professor', 'physics job', etc., 'math PhD', 'history PhD', '<insert subject> PhD' fits equally well in the context of that first post.

"Heresy"? Uh, yeah...

Context ? What context?

You compared a job to a degree/license ! And as an excuse, you said you meant that Physics job or Math professor equaled PhD.

I can also say that wherever I wrote Moon, I meant Sun. And if someone says they are not connected, I can say they are made both of atoms. But as a whole, they are two different things.

Just like a JOB does not equal PhD.

You should have compared the hardships (which justifies financial rewards) of residency+med school to road of math professorship.

Originally Posted by Icecream

You should have compared the hardships (which justifies financial rewards) of residency+med school to road of math professorship.

Are you serious? I've already told you that this is precisely what my comparison entailed:

Originally Posted by Mahratta

I'm equating the MD with the PhD and the subsequent medical paths before practice to the subsequent fellowships, etc. before professorship.

Enough of this nonsense.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Are you serious? I've already told you that this is precisely what my comparison entailed:

I'm equating the MD with the PhD and the subsequent medical paths before practice to the subsequent fellowships, etc. before professorship.


[/color][/color]

That is nonsense.

You did not set the limit to your argument, i.e you did not said in your previous post (the one I was bashing) that you were comparing the paths before practice to profession

So much Red Herring... And so much appeal to flattery by Mowicz.

Have you ever head about logical fallacies ? http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/