Originally Posted by Mahratta

Well, here's my rationale for doing precisely that.

Consider the options of a non-premed (I don't know about law, so let's say 'non-prelaw' as well). For example, take someone in my own program (as I'm most familiar with the options). If they take enough easy courses to bring up their GPAs, they won't have a shot at getting into graduate school and landing a "good", relatively high-paying job in mathematics. So they've got to distinguish themselves in more difficult courses if they want their undergraduate work to pay more dividends (i.e. get into graduate school). Let's now look at this in terms of social factors. In these terms, if I want to make a (financial) living anywhere close to as cushy as that of a doctor, I've got to do a hell of a lot of hard work in my undergraduate years, and I don't get to take 'Big Questions' or 'Waters' or 'Gemstones' to lighten the load. There is no easy way to a mathematics professorship, or a good physics job, or a cushy chemistry placement. There is an easy way to medical school.

This concern, I think, is shared by many non-premeds. I wouldn't say it's irrational at all to hold it.



I never said that such an applicant shouldn't be admitted. I merely suggested a possible situation for a premed that would make them take bird courses.

I hadn't thought of it that way, really. That makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by SydVicious

I think one of the perks of being really ambitious and driven towards a certain career(not just because your parents want you to), is you really don't care what the haters say, you have a goal and the jealous ones (least of all a disproving chemical biologist) can't stop you. Anyone who isn't this selfish needs to seriously consider why they want to be a doctor.

a) Disapproving, not disproving.
b) What does my program have to do with anything?
c) I never said what my personal opinion is, except that I think there is a problem with the system, it depends on the individual person and that I would prefer a hardworking doctor, all else being equal. The OP can take whatever courses they want, why should I care? As I said before, it's their life. I am not jealous of anyone who wants to go to med school, other than perhaps that they actually know for sure what they want to do with their life, whereas I'm not sure. I attempted to answer the question, not prevent them from going to med school.

Originally Posted by jjae0958

Who are you to say they shouldn't take such and such because their choices are not in line with your values/beliefs?

That's not a very reasonable point to make. I'm not a serial killer, but that doesn't stop me from judging their lifestyles. As much as I agree with one minding one's own business, humans judge. There's nothing we can do about it. Whether or not we explicate that judgment is the only issue.

You're portraying those that 'judge' premeds (which is everyone, of course - everyone judges everyone else) as going out of their way to explicate their judgments. That's just untrue - I, for one, don't voice my opinion on the matter unless the situation calls for it (eg. right now), and I doubt the majority of the group you're talking about acts very differently...

Originally Posted by Mahratta

You say 'maximizes his or her chances', I say 'takes the easy way out'. I don't think I'd look for a doctor based on that particular characteristic.



I think the real problem is that too many people want to go into medicine, and too many of those do so for social reasons (money, prestige, family, etc.). When they realize that they're not "smart" enough to get in, they find alternate ways (i.e. bird courses).

I think your placing way too much importance on being book smart, there is a reason why people with the highest IQ's don't end up making the most money, ever heard of emotional intelligence? (common sense, ie. taking easy courses to maximize your chance of getting in is part of EI)

Well, I always tell people to take courses that they enjoy as opposed to things that will simply get them a high mark. Stuff like "Water" is apparently really easy but boring as hell. Whereas there are other courses that they find interesting that they simply don't take because they're perceived to be difficult. I think that university is good for exploring your interests to see what you really want to do. Some people realize that meds isn't for them after finding something else that they're interested in. And others end-up not getting and then they're stuck with a degree that has essentially taught them nothing :\

Alasdair - lol you forgot to add the people who try to get an extra mark on a 2% assignment.

re: maximizing chances, honesty there's more to admissions than getting a high GPA. As long as you make cut-offs (or overshoot them a bit) it's really not necessary to have a 3.99 GPA. The traits and skills that you develop from taking things that you enjoy despite being difficult - e.g. time and stress management are important. You can still have common sense if you take courses that are difficult. And I've seen a ton of pre-meds who "maximized their chances" by slacking on group work, copying other people's assignments, and taking the "I'm only looking out for myself approach". Some of these jerks get in, but their lack of teamwork is often astounding and in medicine working in teams is absolutely essential.

I wasn't expecting a sort of Spanish inquisition.

Originally Posted by Mazer

I wasn't expecting a sort of Spanish inquisition.

Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!

eternal fire your way off base there, the electives you take (in a premed program) are completely your choice, whereas you talk about taking summer school courses for the main component of the program. And don't call me a troll, its very offensive.

The reason why you 'look down" on people who take summer school was because you think it's easier, and the reason why other people judge premed students taking bird courses it's because it's arguably the easy way out. So you did contradict yourself.

Originally Posted by SydVicious

eternal fire your way off base there, the electives you take (in a premed program) are completely your choice, whereas you talk about taking summer school courses for the main component of the program. And don't call me a troll, its very offensive

And this isn't offensive?

Originally Posted by SydVicious

fact: all polish people have mental breakdowns by the time their 30

looks like Michael Parchimowicz is closer to there than we though....

from the thread: http://www.macinsiders.com/showthrea...1.html?t=42601

There is many examples from all your posts where you insult people based on their program, so you can't ask to be treated respectfully when you don't do that yourself. I personally have no respect for you.

Originally Posted by Eternal Fire

And this isn't offensive?

so no response to the main part of my argument I guess.

Originally Posted by SydVicious

so no response to the main part of my argument I guess.

yep you can ignore my response, obvious sign of a troll

Originally Posted by Mahratta

There is no easy way to a mathematics professorship, or a good physics job, or a cushy chemistry placement. There is an easy way to medical school.

This concern, I think, is shared by many non-premeds. I wouldn't say it's irrational at all to hold it.

Your opinion is irrational.

Mathematics Professor : Job.

Finishing Medical School : You do not have a job yet.

Yes, you do have to work hard to get a PhD and to get to professorship. I do not know if getting in med school is easy or not. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume it is easy to get into med school.

To practice medicine (i.e getting an MD salary in your pocket), you have to complete clerkship after med school.

And : Getting into Med school may be easy but that does not mean finishing it is. A person can cheat his/her way to get to get a degree in engineering or even a Professional Engineering diploma. But he/she will highly likely be unable to perform any engineering job. In other words, there will be almost no reward in the end.

The end (the infinitely end) justifies the means.

I was avoiding this thread for a while now, but I did have to comment on this:

Originally Posted by Icecream

Your opinion is irrational.

Mathematics Professor : Job.

Perhaps it used to be true, 30-40 years ago, that getting a PhD implied employment.

In academia, the competitive aspect occurs after getting your PhD. You have to struggle to impress a university in hopes that they'll take you on for a (temporary, usually a year or two) Post Doctoral fellowship. Then the problem is that a university may hire a post-doc in a field that they don't even want a tenured faculty member...so no matter how good a job you do, you're not getting hired.

In the Math department here at Mac, I know of two post-docs who consistently get amazing teaching ratings, and pull in significant grant money...and yet they're still post-docs.



As a math major who's considered applying to med school, I'd like to say I've (at least somewhat) seen both sides of the issue...and in my best judgemen, I can fully and honestly say that once you get into med school, it's much easier to get employed, than as a math student who got into grad school. (In fact, this is one of the reasons I don't want to pursue doctoral studies in math)

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Perhaps it used to be true, 30-40 years ago, that getting a PhD implied employment.


As a math major who's considered applying to med school, I'd like to say I've (at least somewhat) seen both sides of the issue...and in my best judgemen, I can fully and honestly say that once you get into med school, it's much easier to get employed, than as a math professor who got into grad school. (In fact, this is one of the reasons I don't want to pursue doctoral studies in math)

I made a mistake. I know PhD does not necessarily mean a job as a professor. I know there is competition into getting a job as a professor. But my point does not change : To complete the clerkship is hard and requires lots of work.

I am not irrational. I cannot say if med school is easy or hard. I have never tried it myself. But, medical profession requires lots of skills and attributes which plays a deal in people's lives. Lives can be at a fatal risk in medical profession but not as a math prof. This is one of the reason why doctors deserve their salary. Let's not forget that medical doctors work a lot.

EDIT : Actually, I was not wrong. I did not claim Phd Implies employment but that Mathematic Professor is a JOB. Professor is the job of teaching, and in the West, it implies university/college teaching. You just wasted your time posting.